Daniele: Hey, Yuichi, it's such a pleasure to meet you
Yuichi: today. Yeah, nice to meet you, Daniel.
Daniele: I'm very excited to meet you today and to discover. The expertise, the knowledge that you have about service design and all other design things today. Me too. And my first question to you is a very simple one. When you go to a birthday party and you present yourself how do you present yourself?
Yuichi: Yes. My name is Yoichi Inobori. I live in Japan. And Kyoto City. My main background is design, especially UX design and service design and design research as I'm studying innovation on the management science. I got a PhD degree last year. Yes. But my my main interesting is innovation design and organizational culture design.
Yes. I'm trying to evangelize the implement. Everything service design brought in Japan because in Japan in Japan service design is not major field of design. Yes. Yes. I'm trying to do this. Yes. Thank
Daniele: you. Wonderful.
Service Design in Japan
Daniele: And so how do you see I'm very curious because I don't know much about Japan and I'm very interested in how is the Understanding of service design in Japan.
You said it's not a major field. How has it evolved over maybe The last five years, is it like totally unknown? Is it starting to grow? What are the places where maybe people know service design? Can you tell me a little bit more
Yuichi: about that? Yeah. Also in Japan, service design is not a major, but very increasing interest.
Because in Japan is almost industry and almost products, almost services is getting to com complicated, com complex. Yes. So that Japanese traditional business. This person is having a very interesting interest in service design, just in recent years.
Daniele: Okay there is an interest for service design to simplify, maybe, complex products and services.
Is that kind of like the main interest people have for the
Yuichi: field? Yes. Okay. I
Daniele: think so. And, I've been discussing with several people, for example, someone from Dubai, and he said that service design there is something that really started in government.
And that then it's spread out to other parts. Where is service design starting in in Japan? Is it starting in a specific industry or in a specific size of companies? Where do you see it growing at the moment?
Service Design in B2B Industry in Japan
Yuichi: As my as my very opinion, just my opinion, in Japan, it's especially B2B industry. Yes. A B2B industry companies is is having having a very, a great, interesting in cyber because at B2B business and the B2B product on the B2B service is very, complexity and it's necessary to deal with very various actors, a multi user system, and the digital transformation.
Yes, I think so. In Japan, the B2B business is a very good field.
Daniele: Okay. And and did I understand that right? That at the moment it's more B2B and specifically on the more digital aspects of service design where there is a lot of interest. And there is, I think, one part about the presentation of yourself, which you didn't talk yet about, which I'm very interested in.
Role of Human Centered Design Organization in Japan
Daniele: I saw that you are also the co chair of Human Centered Design of the Human Centered Design Organization for Japan. Can you maybe tell us about what that organization does and what you're trying to achieve there?
Yuichi: At Ichiba? Yes. Yes. Yes very difficult question because in Japan it's not yet it's not yet matured about for, about human centered or user centered design but
especially digital service. Digital services tend to focus on human centered design and user centered design, and expand to service design, because digital service industry and digital service companies are It's necessary to think about very complicated interaction for multi user and various stakeholders.
Yes, but but many companies and many industry is not yet mature for a human centered and user centered.
Daniele: So you're really in a pioneer role in, in some way that you're evangelizing about these topics. And and so I'm super thankful that you're doing all of that because I also like that.
From what I've seen also, there is another part that I've seen is that you are a lecturer in at least three universities, if I count well. Yeah.
Challenges and Opportunities in Service Design
Daniele: And and how is it for you to be in this maybe, do you have a tip to share to the community? Because we have many people in this community who are in countries where they say they have the same feeling here where they say, Oh, in my country, service design is not, So well known as maybe in the UK, they say, ah, it's sometimes a bit hard.
What are your maybe encouraging words or tips for people who are in the same situation than you and say, maybe do this and it's going to be okay. Do you have maybe some tips for people who are in the same situation?
Yuichi: It's also very difficult question, but as my opinion.
The Importance of Practice in Design
Yuichi: How to increase opportunity for design practice.
Yes. Excuse me, practicing design. Yes. It, I think studying design method of design framework design process. Yes, but not also important things is practicing, and practice, yes, in the real field, yes the most many students, many design professional.
It's trying to, it's trying to practicing design, yes, a real project, and yes.
Daniele: Okay so basically saying, it's good to know the tools, it's good to know the processes. But practice, is a big aspect and shouldn't be forgotten, especially in places where it's not mature. The example is very important for people to have.
Yeah. Awesome. It's a I asked today very difficult questions, I know, but but but you're very you're very good at answering very difficult questions today, I see.
The Future of Service Design in Japan
Daniele: And and I'm also curious how do you see maybe the future of service design in Japan? You already said a few things about this opportunity to simplify complex services.
Do you see other opportunities, for young service designers? We have A lot of younger people watching these kind of videos and they often say, Oh how can I prepare myself for the future? Again, it's a hard question. But maybe what is your take on that? Knowing that You are also the vice president of Infoban, which is a consultancy, so you also lead people.
And so maybe you have a few ideas on what's the next types of talents or the next type of skills that you're looking for when it comes to practicing service design in Japan.
Yuichi: Yes very hard, but a very good question. Thank you. I think, Such important things, it's maybe thinking critically thinking how to think critically.
Not only logical thinking, but also a strange point of view and critical thinking.
Daniele: Okay, so it's not just about the rational thinking, but also being able to bring different perspectives and and maybe intuition and critics and this kind of stuff and not just okay.
And this is maybe one thing that people should practice a little bit more. Okay.
Daniele: Yeah. That's already very useful advice that we can give to the next generation of of service designers, both in Japan and from all around the world. That's always such very good advice, practice more. be more critical try to bring a different perspective than what's usually offered.
I think these are very good and strong pieces of advice. And and one last thing that I'd like to know a bit more before we start with the book review is can you tell me a little bit more about Infoban? First because the name is really interesting to me as a As someone coming from a country where we speak German, Infoban is for me a very German name.
So maybe can you tell me a bit more about what is Infoban, what you're doing there and and yeah, what's the relationship between Infoban and also the service design world in Japan?
Infobahn and Service Design
Yuichi: Okay. A very good point. Thank you. Infoban is The making word mixture information and Bahn.
Bahn means a highway in German. Yeah, in German language. We tried to making information highway between company and industry to a consumer. Or people and society through service design UX design design practicing design practice and seeking future insight by design, research and UX research.
Yes. Is origin. Origin Industry is a media company. We publish a lot of media, for example, White Earth, Japanese edition, or Gizmod, Japanese edition, or Business Insider, Japanese edition. We have some many some business field. One is a media, the one is a innovation design and one it's a media design.
Yes.
Daniele: So it's a large organization then?
Yuichi: No, a whole group companies, approximately. 200, 200 employees. Yes.
Daniele: Okay. We have. That's all. I like how it's how you're not just focused on one element, but where you can, translate learnings from maybe media to innovation, from innovation to media.
And and that these elements as you said, are a roads between these elements of information and that you
Yuichi: can share these these yes.
Daniele: Awesome. It's it's such a pleasure, I have to say it's a big pleasure today to meet you because I have a dear friend who started last year to work in in Japan and she got a position in leadership in a quite big organization in Japan.
And from time to time, she texts me, Oh, this is so interesting here. This is so interesting. This is so interesting. Yeah. So I'm super happy, to get to meet someone who, who lives in such an interesting country. So thank you so much for joining today.
Daniele: I'd like to now switch a bit and go on the the book review part.
So you received the chapter, how can you make the workplace calmer from the book Service Design Principles 301 to 400. And so you've read that chapter. And the first question I'd like to ask you is, was there something that What resonated with you particularly or that you really liked about that specific chapter?
The good stuff
Yuichi: Yes the chapter I read is very inspiring for me because I think the most important things for creativity is to ensure psychological safety. Yes Yes, I think so. I think so hardly, because the workplace is making karma and safety, psychological safety, the very most important things for design and create values and collaborating and so forth.
Encourage people's creativity. I what important is the psychological safety under confidence self-confidence, self-confidence that one's own self is respected under confident that they are respected, we're respected from other people. The so such such point that they I'm inspiring point about this book in this chapter for me.
Daniele: And May might I ask, so you are leading a co, a company or you are in the leadership of a company. Yeah. So how do you design or ensure this psychological safety, what are things . What are the things that you do so that the workplace can be calmer, can be safe, so that creative people that you work with can be creative?
What are the practical things that you do to make this possible? Again, hard question.
Yuichi: Yes, I think so. But in my opinion, especially in Japan, And Japanese people to all Japanese people so shy and and not, don't, they don't, as many people, they don't, say strong, my our, their opinion to other people. The Japanese Japanese traditional communication style is very highly contextual. Yes. Especially leading between the lines. Yes my, I think especially in Japan, in Japanese in Japan or in Japanese company is a key how to make psychological safety or workplace making karma is that taking care.
We are taking care of each other between all colleagues and employees and the project members. I think so.
Daniele: So it's from what I'm hearing, you're saying That there is a shyness maybe yes. The same that we have sometimes a bit in Switzerland where there is a big respect for the other Yes.
So that you don't say, oh, I didn't like that or you can't be that critical face-to-face because that wouldn't be respectful. And that therefore you need to find other ways to be able to extract that information in a way that is still respectful of the culture. Is that is that correct?
Yes. And how do you get to, because you said before you wish that the younger generation will be a bit more critical. How can we help the young designers to be more critical? Even if they are maybe a bit shy, or when the culture obviously is a culture of respect, which is very good. How can we be critical and respectful, which is a very difficult thing.
Which I know, for example, in Switzerland, one thing that we do is, when we have meetings are a show. There are not real meetings. What happens is that before the meeting, we meet each person personally and we have the deep, the difficult conversation. And then once we join for the meeting, already everybody agrees and we just play the part of us saying, it's all good, very good.
And because we can't disagree with too many people in one room, that wouldn't be respectful. And so we find ways to do it before. So what are your ways? that you found in your culture, maybe in also Infoban culture, to help young designers to be more critical and still feel, psychologically safe and culturally,
How to critique with respect
Yuichi: Okay.
Yes we I and we are colleagues trying to start from good and something, yes, good and, yes maybe sounds co contradictory thing. You criticizing, criticize, critique and criticizing and respect each other. But I don't think two such two things.
There two things is not a contradiction. Cri criticizing a cri critical approach and respect respective approach is a very aligned. We can align the two things, but because because for. It's important seeing this if those things I think are talking honestly and talking carefully each other it's always and usually, yes, because we.
I I I think that very necessary and important things starting from good and yes, how to improve how to improve more better about your opinion and that we, our opinion, yes, I think so.
Daniele: Okay. So bringing praise and then not so much about saying this is not good. Okay.
Okay. But saying, this is how it could be improved, which is a bit of a different way of saying it, which is saying, hey, it's already at the state, which is interesting, but to bring it to the next level of what we expect, these are ideas, questions that you can ask yourself to continue.
Yuichi: So it's first recognizing the good work.
Yes, I would study I was studied philosophy is in my studenthood Yes. As I love I my, my loving and my favorite approach is directive approach. Yes. And
Daniele: so that's basically the way you're giving feedback in a way that feels respectful for the people.
Person also I'm guessing, which is doing the good. The good, the bad, and then being able to make a summary, which makes sense of all of it. Yes. And and so thinking about, about, leaders who come to Japan, who might come. So I'm thinking about my friend. So I'm I'm fishing for advice for my friend so that I can then tell her Hey, watch this episode, it's gonna help you.
The importance of translating the different languages and needs in a company hierarchy
Daniele: If you had to give an advice, to someone, for example, you say, hey, Daniele is moving to Japan next year working in a big organization, what would you tell me as a Tips to say, this is what you should do so that it works well. This is, these are very important things to understand about the culture so that you can create a calmer workplace.
Yuichi: Oh, it's also very.
Daniele: Hard question, I know.
Yuichi: Hard question, difficult question. Yes as my opinion is tips on the important things to understand Japanese, especially traditional. Enterprise company culture is how to think how to think various things for executives and middle manager and younger manager. And Novice, it's how to think something, it's almost Japanese traditional companies employees and executives think same thing thinking same thing, but, a different perspective and a different position. It's different position, different perspective makes yes a difficult make it difficult to understand each other. And yes essential thing what is such. Think and essential point of view is very makes me complicated.
Yes. I think I'm trying to have positively diog dialogue with various players, various people. Yes. Talking about various things. It's, I'm a, yes. I think, designer is a good translator, good interpreter for companies, various people.
Daniele: It's very interesting because what you say as being something very specific to Japan feels to me very specific also to Switzerland, this kind of hierarchy thing, where, maybe executives are, have different needs and perspectives.
than middle managers, than people in the field. And that sometimes the hardest part is to not only understand the different perspectives, but then be able to translate them into the language of each level. And be able to say, okay, now we have someone from field who needs to speak with executive, and we need to teach him.
to speak with numbers and stuff like that because at that level it's numbers and should level maybe field is less numbers but more processes and stories and we have to be able to make this translation and as you say it's very interesting to note that designers have the field research bit, the empathic thing, are in a very good position to be these translators, this lift between the different hierarchies, where they can say, oh, let me bring that information up in a way that is understood.
And then let me, help me bring it back in a way that people can understand it, because the languages are different the needs are different, the expectations are different. And yeah, that's it's very interesting how it's very similar, we're from two very different cultures, the same problems exist on two different places in the world.
Yuichi: Absolutely. Thanks for perfect understanding.
Visual examples to create a new common language
Daniele: And and so in In Infoban, for example, I'm very curious, how do you, are there practical things that you do in Praxis? To make this translation, between executive level and the very bottom level. H how, yeah, how do you make this translation happen?
Are there practical things that you do?
Yuichi: Yes. Yes. I think
mostly important and most effective. Approach is visualizing. Yes. Visualizing. Visualizing not the only visual making a visual, but also defining language, what someone means language, this language, yes.
Their opinion is a language, their language is a language. Language is a very, I think a language, defining language is a very very important visualizing approach. Yes. And making a visual. And structuring information. Yes. Because what visualizing material is a very equal understanding tools for various people.
Yes. We are trying to get this approach.
Daniele: Very interesting because it feels to me as if. You're saying, when we have two different cultures who don't speak exactly the same language, sometimes it's useful to create a third language, which can be the common one, where we then say, and maybe often it's a visual thing, where we say, when we speak about that, we mean this, and we can show it.
In the book, there is this principle, which is called give an example when using fancy terms, where, when, for example, saying, oh we want you to work on a strategy, for example, and let's say what we mean with strategy is, and then you can visualize it and say, this is what we mean.
And this is now we are giving a new meaning to the word, which is like a new language. And we're using visualization to make it clear. And I think this is a very interesting bit to say the visual aspect can be the. The third language, which might be the common language between these different levels and and cultures.
Thanks so much for sharing that. That's yeah. Thank you. It's a very very good advices hard questions. No. Good advices. It's really cool. It's really cool.
Yuichi: It's great. And
Daniele: my pleasure.
The bad stuff
Daniele: You read also you read that chapter and obviously not everything is great in it, and we are gonna do a bit of as you said, the dialectical thinking where we talk now about the good stuff.
Now we are gonna talk about more. The bad stuff, what could be improved, what could be changed. Do you have any thoughts on that?
The importance of conflict
Yuichi: Yes
yes, it's hard to say. Yes good expression. I think I generally agree with what the chapter is saying. On top of that, if I dare to think critically when trying to perform a creative act, sometimes it may be necessary to put a great pressure on oneself to immerse oneself.
The same can be said about collaboration with others. It's important to respect each other and collaborate. AMIC, aary it also important, not be afraid of and promising a conflict. At times, I think a dialectical approach is also important for creative practice and making what making the workplace calmer and keeping yes psychological safety.
Yes, I think so. So
Daniele: if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying having a calm workplace is a good thing, but by going in that direction, you should, we shouldn't keep out. The conflicts part, the pressure, because there is positive pressure, it exists, there is positive conflict in, because it makes people realize there is a problem and we can then solve the problem and therefore calm shouldn't be like calm where everybody just shuts up and does the work, but should be a calm where We can calmly say, I disagree with you, and we can say it in a way that is not aggressive, but in a way where I can be disagreeing in a calm way, and therefore, we should make sure that we agree.
By going into calm, we don't erase the positive pressure. I think that's, my dad was is a psychologist and he told me once this difference between the terror, between stress and a stress. And he said it like that back in the days. He told me there is two types of pressure. There is a positive pressure.
Which makes you learn, which, it's like the muscular pressure, where you need to put some pressure so that the muscle grows. And then there is the pressure that is dangerous, where it can break the muscle. And and you need both, you need the positive pressure, but you need to know when, what is the negative pressure.
And that, I think this is a very good reminder to say. Obviously, we would love to have a calm place, but a calm workplace is not one without conflict, is not one without disagreement is not one without people being sometimes unhappy. It's we need also these emotions to be working.
Absolutely. Did I understand you correctly?
Yuichi: Yes,
Daniele: very correct. I'm very happy that. And and what else would you, do you disagree with, or where, what, where do you see maybe something missing?
The importance of in-person moments for a calmer workplace
Daniele: What else in that chapter or in the book in general, or in the ideas that are in there, do you see as missing or where you would maybe add another? Another idea on top of it.
Yuichi: Ah yeah. Yeah. It's previous I said I generally agree with what chapter is saying, but if additional idea or as a idea to say yes, I generally agree , just as my opinion in recent years for us especially after COVID-19 or most communication on online and hybrid rate interaction. I like hybrid and online communication. But I think, I think a diversity offline and physical communication is very is making important things more and more from now because it's it the way of how the way to making WordPress comma is yes a aligning physical communication or but online.
Online is immersive immersive communication is how to communicate immersive and how to communicate deeply. Yes not only online, but also physical and hybrid. Yes we we have to create ideas. Yes communication tools communication process. In a design process on the design project, I
Daniele: think so.
It's a very interesting perspective because in a way we can say, we spend a lot of money each month on, on tools to help us have digital communication, emails slack this kind of tools, where we invest a lot of money, energy to make these things work. But then we can ask ourselves how much energy do we put and how many tools do we have to make physical interaction better, and then you realize, oh, it's not that much, we don't put as much energy and thoughts into that.
And and it's very Interesting also to see that many of the fully remote companies still say they have at least once a year a physical retreat all together because they say this is important even to us who are totally remote And not losing the focus on saying, yes, we spend a lot of time in digital and we put a lot of energy in that, but could we put at least as much money and energy and thought into also designing the
Yuichi: in-person yeah.
Daniele: Moments. Absolutely. It's a very good, thank you so much.
Recommended resources
Daniele: And, and I know from our common friends that you are a very knowledgeable man and that you have a lot of of additional expertise to share. So I'd like to ask you what are additional resources, can be books, videos, tablets, ideas that you would recommend to people?
To read or explore after reading that book?
Yuichi: Yeah. I have a very loving book, a very lot of loved books and papers. But my my not the best as but favorite books is Robert Berges design Innovation. Belgrandi's book is very very inspiring for me because for example, I designed driven innovation and other books overcrowded with I love it because these books are about ideas and practices that seek to create new values through a critique of existing regimes of meaning or values.
It's so that yes, I think Bergandi's book is very inspiring for thinking critically, and thinking beyond current and existing regimes, it's breaking current regimes, yes. I think so.
Daniele: That's right. That's a very good resource, especially with with the the advice that you gave at the start, with critical thinking and this, and I'm sure the next generation of designers will be very interested to to read more about that.
Is there any other resource that you'd like to recommend or maybe if people are interested if people are living in Japan and say, Oh, the service design thing, that sounds interesting, but where can I meet people? Where can I get in touch with like minded people and maybe grow in my expertise?
Are there recommendations that you
Yuichi: have for that? Yes in Japan in recent years in Japan a design community especially service designers and design researchers community is very grown gradually grown as I, I organizing I organizing as a wonderful board member, human centered design organization.
Japan. There is a human centered design organization in Japan. We call HCD net. AC net. Net is acd net. All very various design and research experts and specialist is gathering and studying design method and researching new design approach. Yes I recommend I highly recommend join and keep in touch with such design community in Japan.
Daniele: Wonderful. So I'll make sure to add a link to that community as well so that people Yes. Who are local can get in touch with you and the rest of the community. Yes. And it's also very interesting to me to. To see that it's not just a community for service design nerds but more, like a general thing where you can find both service designers, UX designers, design strategists, researchers, and that you have this Great mix of people who have the human centered mindsets, but maybe different job titles.
And that's that's also a very very interesting approach to mix these different
Yuichi: types of people. And of course in Japan, there is Japan chapter of service design network is the Yes.
Daniele: Awesome. So for those who want just the service design stuff, we have the service design network.
And for those who dare to be a bit more courageous, maybe the HCD thing can also be like a place where you expand a bit more your knowledge and go a bit beyond. That's a very good, recommendation. And so we had, the, we did the dialectical thinking here where we had the, the positive, the negative.
And may I ask you what will be your sentences? Of this conversation, if you had to do your own synthesis of what we learned together today, what would that be? Ah, so Hard
Yuichi: question. I know. Hard question. Hard question. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Just as my custom and as my style always and usually trying to consider, try to consider multiple perspec through a multiple perspective about one thing.
Yes. Trying to suspend existing meaning existing
uhs. Of value and meaning is Yes. Yes. Trying to break in trying to break. Yes. Current co static frame of think and field. Yeah. I'm training usually .
Daniele: Yeah. It's a, it is a very good synthesis, this idea of saying. It's important that we take different perspectives and and sometimes it's not always easy to just stop our own our our own opinions and stuff to, to be able to hear.
From others. And one thing that you do particularly well that I'd like to compliment you on which I think is a thing that I'm learning from you today also, which is a tiny bit that I'm going to steal from you, which in your answers, you do something which is a very respectful and that I really appreciate this.
You often start with, in my opinion, which is, I think that is very strong. Because as you said, in cultures like mine and maybe yours too where critique is is not often, said out loud. Just being able to say, this is my thought. doesn't mean that I'm right, doesn't mean that everybody means the same, is already a thing that makes it a little bit calmer, where it makes it already a bit a safer place to say, this is my opinion.
It's, and it's just mine in my opinion. And then giving the feedback and I think that's a very gentle way easy way also to, to create this psychological safety and and you're a very good example of that. Congrats on that too. It's
Yuichi: thank you for perfect understanding. Thank you.
## Service Design communities in Japan
Daniele: Awesome. So we talked a lot. Is there anything else that you'd like to share today? Is there something that we forgot to talk about?
Yuichi: Yes, the previous I said in Japan service design is not a major field but I and my design community colleague the friends is trying to very much.
Evangel ing as broadening service design field and interest of service design as if possible and as a design. Design friends from all over the world, please come to Japan and have a dialogue with a Japanese design person and communicate with the Japanese design community.
Yes I, and my colleague, organizing very openly design community events and Talk events and a meetup in Japan. Yes I trying to share information about the events on the LinkedIn. Yes hashtag Service Design and Service Design Japan. If possible please come to Japan and the community come communicate and have a spend time about talking about design.
Daniele: Awesome. So I wouldn't be sure. to check it more often. And I think that's a very good call to action also for people in general to there are very good services and communities around the world. And often these communities have also events which are held. And therefore it's very interesting, even if you're not from Japan, sometimes join an event from Japan, just because it opens your mind because it's a different culture.
And then, as you said, it. It pushes you to break a bit your usual thinking and realize, oh, there are other ways to do it. Or also there are the same problem everywhere, which is also a good thing to know where you say, ah, this is the, I have the same problem. I thought this is a Swiss thing.
And no, it's not a Swiss thing. It's a human thing and it's the same everywhere. And these are, these kind of events that you are organizing are great opportunities, obviously. To get there. Thank you so much. You gave a lot now to people, you gave a lot of knowledge, advice and ideas.
## Get in touch with Yuichi
Daniele: What's something that people can do for you or for Infoban or for your communities?
Yuichi: If someone want to communicate and connect with me or with our ecobank company. Please please contact u by link to and info band c jp. Please connect to my SNS account Facebook or LinkedIn, yes. Please search my name. It's very my name is very unique. My family name is Inobori. Inobori is a very unique name in Japan. Okay. Maybe InnoBody the people have InnoBody as a family name. It's only my family.
Oh, wow.
Daniele: That's, yeah, maybe. Easy to Google. Easy to Google. Yes.
Yuichi: Wonderful.
Closing words
Daniele: Thank you. Thank you so much. Hey. Thank you so much again for your time, for your energy for your kindness. And and also, it's been a very lovely conversation. I appreciate it so much, especially as I throw a lot of hard questions to you and and you handled them very well and you gave a lot of deep and and interesting advice.
So thank you so much. And I wish you all the best for. your work in continuing to evangelize service design around Japan. Thank you so much for all what you do and for the time
Yuichi: you spent today with me. Great thanks for Daniele. Thank you so much. Bye bye. Bye bye.