Automated transcript

This is an automated transcript of the video, therefore some sentences might be very creative and pretty wrong (surely being a non-native English speaker doesn't help the robots).

Introduction

Daniele Catalanotto: Coming up at coaching session about Service Design with Luis Sereno and then Daniela Scalise. In this coaching session, we covered topics like Service Design and Business. Imposter syndrome. How to you feel less overwhelmed with the amount of tools that are available to service designers? Thanks to Daniela and José for spending that time with me and exploring all of these questions.

Q&A

Daniela: What is the interplay, I would say between Service, Design methodologies and the business side ?

When specifically when you encounter a Service Design problem on one side what are the business problems that you usually Facing in a design situation and how much they overlap with Service, Design services and, and methodologies for instance, in a workshop. And and the other part I was interested in knowing is how much as a service designer you have to know in terms of business [00:01:00] knowledge, business terminology, and how often do you, for instance find yourself working together with business people or high level management to take business decision in a Service Design situation, more or less?

Daniele: So for the first question, which is kind of, oh, where does Service Design overlap with business? Or not? That's, it's a, it's a very complex thing because it really depends on the project. Mm-hmm. So that's kind of like The first thing is it depends on the project and it depends on another thing, which is, it depends on the company design maturity, if we can call it like that.

And another thing is it depends on your own maturity within the company. So usually, at least that's in my experience, is when. You start in a company, you know the, the trust level is quite low. Sure. Which means they first throw [00:02:00] at you tiny problems to see can this person manage that? And then it's like a Mario level, you or a Mario game, where you first have to make the first level.

And then when once you've done the first level, oh, okay, this person can handle this kind of problem. Well, let's give, let's give her a bit more complex levels and so therefore if you're starting in Service Design in a, in a big organization, it doesn't, it's not per se that you will start this very businessy things where it's, you're gonna be interacting directly with the CEO and this kind of stuff, because obviously you need to basically pass the levels to show that you have a good understanding of the company and also that you build the trust.

And that's something that takes, I would say in my experience, it takes at least one, two year, one to two years to get to the level where, you know, people. Where you have built your track record, you know for [00:03:00] Americans it'll be you know, they have credit scores. You know, Americans have the thing where they have credit scores that prove that they can buy something and that they can repay something.

And it, I feel it's basically the same, you know that it, you have to build that track record. So that's maybe the first element. So if you're pretty new in the company, usually you won't really start with that kind of stuff. The other thing is the level of maturity that the company has of understanding that Service Design has, can also help the CEO the business team.

Because that's, there are different understandings of that, which are okay. You know, there are people who say, Hey, the Service Design stuff should be limited. Really is really working well for improving customer experiences. And that's great and we just use it for that. Other people say, Hey other companies say this is really cool to improve our internal processes, and it's already great that it's used for that.

And [00:04:00] others say, oh we can really think about our whole company with these tools from Service Design and mixing it with more of them. So there are quite interesting I, I think there is a conference on the SDN conference in, in Canada. There was a talk about the maturity of Service Design.

Let's me just Google that for you and find if Yes I will put the link in here so that you have it. Thanks. So that's why Miro is so fun, because I can just put stuff that. That really quickly, you didn't have it. So they're, they have made a talk and they have a model also which is quite interesting about the level of maturity that is, that exists in Service Design.

And so basically what they're showing is that, you know first you have to, usually in some companies it's just, oh, we are gonna explore it, try it out. You know, we try a few, a few methods. Then others are just at [00:05:00] stage later where they have already a, a track record of trying it in a few different projects, you know, and it shows that it works.

And then it's really okay, we are gonna scale it and we are gonna have, we, we are gonna make it something that is not just in one department or in a lab, but it's used really within the company in general. And then it's really something that is then really part of the language where it's just.

Second nature of the culture. And then obviously you get to the stage where it's really thriving and and it goes even beyond that, that, oh, that company. So that's usually the question is to detect how mature as a company is on this Service Design stuff. If they use the term, it's already a good sign of maturity.

And so that's, if you wanted to use a lot of Service Design methodologies in, in a, in new job, looking for these terms is already a signal of do they understand it or [00:06:00] not. But there is a big caveat here, which is it depends on the country because not every country uses the terms in the same way. For example I think Finland Finland, the UK are really mature in the term of language.

They use Service Design a lot as a language. But if you take Switzerland, it's not the term that we use so much. We tend to use all the terms like customer experience, innovation, design thinking, you know, as other terms, but basically doing a lot of the same stuff than Service Design. So I, so that's my little thing is personally, I don't care if people call it Service Design or not, you know, as long as the, the type of project and the type of work has the mindsets.

If you call it zebras, I'm okay with it, you know? It's

Daniela: okay. So you're on that side because I, I saw, I, I read several articles and and watch videos and discussions on that, [00:07:00] that, you know that, you know, co whatever, and that's, I think one of the first things that the book this Service Design doing mentions like, call

it

whatever you want.

Yeah. So you are nice. Cool. Like, you know, you still, like, you don't mind to be pointed as, you know, the, I dunno, the bus business transformation guy. Yeah.

Daniele: Cool. You know, in, in, in my work at the Salvation Army, people call me the sticky note guy. No, they dunno what I'm doing. They say this, this, this is Mr.

Sticky notes. You know, we don't know exactly what he does, but he's a magician with sticky notes, you know, and it's, it's okay, you know if people say this is the best word that they find to explain it. It's okay. You know, I don't need to to school them and say, no. What we are doing here is Service, Design it has a history.

And please be respectful of the history. You know, it's that that's not a problem. You know, it's like when people mispronounce my name, I'm not offended because I'm like, Hey, it's okay. You, you make your best. You make your best. Trying to pronounce my crazy name, and that's already a, [00:08:00] that's already a lot.

But again, we don't all agree on that. So there are people who are very much like, should use the na the proper term and the proper term is that, but then you create these religion wars where people say, this is ux. No, this is Service. Design. And then when you look at the history of terms, it's always funny because, for example, if you look at the term UX.

One Don Norman. I think one of the first definitions he used for, for UX is what I would say is perfectly Service Design because he includes not only digital stuff. Mm-hmm. He says all the support, the services and all of that. It's creating all these interactions. Mm-hmm. So usually when people fight about terms, there is a bit of a funny thing when you just said them, tell them maybe you should go back in history a few years to see how the term has evolved and which version of the term are you using, or to who do you reference?

But that's a little bit, bit of a, [00:09:00] of a little parenthesis. And then finally, it depends on the projects. So it's a very Swiss answer that I'm giving you here, which is you know, Switzer Swiss people usually tend to say yes and no, and all in between. And that's basically here. The same is. It, it really depends on the project and it really depends on the company.

It depends also on your own maturity within the company, I think. But if you find a, a company that says that says, Hey we are looking for a service designer to transform the way we do business in general, you know, then you see that there is a high maturity and that you might do much work there.

But again, depends on what the company needs and what the culture of the company is because there is, there are so many ways to arrive to a solution. Service, Design is only one of them. Okay. Which is, I think the humblest thing to say, and we practice that one. And I think no service designer practices, only Service, Design you know, it's [00:10:00] just one tool in the toolbox.

And therefore there are places where you can use it because people are because people are willing to use it. And there are places where. It doesn't make sense because people just don't need it and it's okay. Okay,

Daniela: okay. That's interesting.

Daniele: Yeah. Does that answer a bit, that

question for you? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Daniela: Absolutely. Yes. And it's also and, you know, reassuring in a way because

Daniele: yeah, as you, as you said, especially the last thing you said, that, I mean,

Daniela: you are not always needed.

Daniele: Like if you don't need it, there is no way to force him to an organization. And I think yeah, I am as I'm, I'm still like new, but I'm reading a lot of case studies and I, I have actually read about what you just explained.

Like it really,

Daniela: I see

Daniele: like, especially in some se

Daniela: some sectors are more Service, Design mature than others.

Daniele: And and also for me, I think this is like in as I'm looking for jobs, I mean, this is certainly not. Maybe some [00:11:00] sectors I'm, I would aim at, at the very beginning because I don't aspire, you know, to work.

I don't know for a big insurance company when I start Service Design, but it's good to know that I see like many I mean many successes as well. And and as you said, like

Daniela: many of these case studies outlined, the fact that there is a terminology, there is a culture there already and they already experimented something.

And, and most of all, there is some buy-in from from the managers, from someone with sitting up when it's when this is happening. So because they, at the end, it also involves cultural shifts and cultural changes. That's what I've been learning. So there has to be someone that sits on a, on a higher place and that says well, okay, this is I, you know, I give permission because I, especially for me that I owe.

Daniele: I come from these very big bureaucratic machines. In the last two years I worked for the un and that has [00:12:00] actually basically consumed my life. This bureaucracy vertical systems top-down approaches. There is like basically no teamwork, no shared decision. It's just everything is stopped down.

So you just have to follow the rules and that's it. Mm-hmm. And that was a bit disheartening for me and, and very, I am very upsetting. Mm-hmm. And that's why I also decided to leave this sector because it was like but at the end of the day, it's even in private companies, like things are not as bureaucratic maybe, but there always has to be someone if you like, that takes decision.

That gives the goal, you know?

Daniela: Yeah. And, and I think it's, as you say, you know, it's. It's easier when it's easier to do that kind of work if there is already some traces of it within the company. Yeah. Doesn't mean that you can't do it in companies where it never happens, [00:13:00] but it's gonna be easier if there is someone who supports it in some ways who says, Hey, yeah, that's methodology we use, it's our, in our toolbox.

That's already a lot, you know even if they say it's on our toolbox, but we didn't use it yet. That's, that's already make making it your life much easier because then you can speak about it, explain it more easily then if you're just coming and people say you just need to do that job in the way that we usually do it, and when you bring something new, then you really have to do a lot of work in order to, to show prove that that is valuable.

Daniele: You had a, a second question, which was this question of how much of the business knowledge or termin terminology should I know. Obviously knowing that service designers as service designers, w we might have the chance to work on problems that are a bit outside of our expertise.

And, and I think here the general [00:14:00] idea for me is is business is just another language or another thing that we interact with. Usually the way I see a service designer, you know, is like a maestro in a, in in Oprah, you know, he's not the singer, you know, he's not the one making the music, but he's the one who understands all the different pieces and tries to bring them together, you know, and.

And the difference between the, between Service, Design and the maestro, that's where the, the, the, the analogy stops is usually you don't see the, you don't see the service designer, but you see the maestro. That's the difference. But, and therefore, I think obviously whenever you start a project where you are interacting with people from a new field, can, might be developers very technical people might be communications people, might be HR people or might be pure business people.

I think it's always valuable to try to understand a bit of the [00:15:00] language and, and the culture from where they come. And that's not just true for business. It's true for any, any different parts. So I think that the, the one thing that has helped me is to have a bit of a general culture about this kind of stuff.

You know, even without being a specialist on business, because I'm definitely not, but at least knowing a few of the terms that. I feel comfortable in a conversation and I understand from what they speak, even if I don't understand all of the details. I think that's, so, I think it's having a bit of a general culture helps.

So that's, you know, knowing basic stuff, you know, like what is a KPI knowing terms like having read a bit of a one, a strategy book or something like that, you know, you don't need to have an expertise of it, but just understanding it. Yeah. And then the other thing is, which is, which is lovely, is you can always ask questions.

Mm-hmm. Because that's always a, a and [00:16:00] it's a powerful move, which is once you have a bit just the basic general culture that helps you to understand contexts. Then when you ask a question and you play the dummy, you know it. When you say kpi, which type of KPI do you really mean? You know is this really is this a KPI for you?

You know, and then people start to teach you stuff. And in the way that they teach you stuff, they reveal not only they don't educate on you, but basically what they're saying, they're revealing the culture and their understanding of the company about what me, what is business for them. Mm-hmm. Because that's one thing that I find always so funny is people use the same terms with different meanings also in the same organization.

You mean? In the same organization? Yes. And that's why being in a position where you know too much about something and you [00:17:00] have are then in a, the term means that, and all the other definitions are stupid, is not the right mindset. It should rather be, I have a basic understanding. And I'm happy to be taught.

So because what I see, for example if you're working on a, on a, on a big strategy project, what's positioning for someone might be measures for someone else just because the terms they use, they don't use them in the same way, which is not a problem if you are okay to ask, Hmm. When you say measure, can you, can you give me an example?

You know? And then the person says, oh, I mean this. And if in your head you use another word for it, it's not your job to say. In my head they call it like that. It's like, oh, okay, now I got you. I see. So that's, that's why I think having a bit of a basic knowledge is good, but then staying in that [00:18:00] approach where you can ask for examples, Because in the end, people within the same organization don't use the terms in the same way.

And that's something that that is hard to fight. Some people try to fight it by creating a common language and making sure that everyone is aligned, which is a good way to do it. But if that's not your goal, then just asking the stupid question of, Hey cool. All right. So you want, you want here more specific KPIs.

Could you please give me an example of what is a specific KPI for you? Yeah. And then the person will teach you. What's happening usually is that you're not, the only one that doesn't understand is that, that the people around are taking notes. Cause thank you so much that you ask. I never understood him.

Daniela: It's so true. He's so true.

Daniele: Yeah. [00:19:00] And so to be of service, which is very much on the tur in, in the topic, the best way of being a, of service for the company as a, of, as of someone practicing Service Design with other people is to ask the stupid questions. Even if you already know the answer for yourself, just assume that you, cause the other one might have another answer.

Yeah. Which will reveal a lot. And that's a thing that, that I have to say, you know, it's a, it's a still a thing that I'm still learning, you know, because I come with my own definitions that I explain to people, okay, so we are gonna do this, this, and people agree. And then once we do the work, suddenly you realize, ah, we didn't use the same terms.

They have another definition. Shit, I forgot to give an example. Yeah, yeah. I forgot to say, when I say that, I mean this. Yeah,

Daniela: yeah. Well that, that is powerful. That is actually, you know, can [00:20:00] really spoil like a complete workshop. Like no. Yeah. Cool.

Daniele: So does that, does that does that answer a bit, your question about how much you should know versus again, it's a very serious answer.

You know, it's a, you should know a little bit, but. Yeah. But still be curious enough to, to ask questions. No,

Daniela: absolutely. Absolutely. And I think you nailed it. It happened to me again as I worked this ly with people in the past that I mean, sometimes and, and the reason, the interesting thing, especially in environments like mine, I don't know.

I, I mean, I work for the private sector, but not as long as for the public sector that people are afraid. Yeah, they're afraid, but not afraid. Afraid. They're like a bit afraid, intimidating. They're dead scared. Because there are some, especially, well, it also depending on, on the people who are in the room, but the default state, even if there is just someone, colleagues or a small group, the, the [00:21:00] default state is they are really afraid of saying things aloud or to speak up or, or, and not like, let alone to say, Well, I didn't know it.

Thanks. Mm-hmm. And and it feels like you are really, and I think that's a big part I feel of a service designer and that's how I found myself, you know, compatible, I think with this job, because you are able to relax the environment in this way. Yeah. It's like you entered room last questions, like you play the dummy and and you, you see that people kind of relax and they chill and they open up a little bit more.

Or also among themselves because I think to some extent this is true in every company, public or private. But some environments are way worse than others. I am, I mean, worse in the sense of people are really scared of speaking up.

Daniele: Mm-hmm. I, I, I think it's interesting how you frame that, you know, that the role of the service designer is in some ways to help relax the organization.

Yeah. You know, [00:22:00] and to bring it back to a human level where I don't have to fear saying something. Yeah. And in, in that order to do that, often we need to be to lead by example, which is asking dummy questions so that people say, oh, that person asked that dumb question. She didn't get fired. She didn't get yelled at.

Exactly. She was smiling, the other person smiled back. Mm-hmm. Oh, that's something we can do, you know, instead of saying, we can ask dumb questions, which we always say, but never happens, just asking them, because then people have this, oh, I have the experience that it works. And I think that's a, that's a, that's a powerful, powerful thing.

Do you know the term psychological safety? No, I don't think so. Cause that's maybe a thing that if you are interested in that topic of trying. To create an environment, a work environment where, where [00:23:00] people can speak up. There is this term that exists, which is called psychological safety. I think it was born around somewhere in, at Google.

And I have a thing that I can share with you. Let me just find it. So let me find it. Psychological safety. I created a set of cards to help for, to do that in, in workshops. So let's me find that again. Psychological safety cards. So basically, psychological safety is this idea that you are allowed to say something which might be stupid, which you're unsure of which might be critical, and you know that you won't lose your job.

People will not make fun at you directly or indirectly, you know? And that you will be in a safe place. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so there will no, [00:24:00] no harm will happen if you speak up. Mm-hmm. And the best, one of the best ways I find to, to create that is by doing two things. One is being the example, you know, creating it by example.

So showing all these, these these traits. So if it's okay that if it's, it should be okay that I can disagree, sometimes disagree, you know, in a very positive way, you know, say, oh, that's an opinion. I, I personally have this opinion. How do you find, are these opinion compatible or are, are, they're completely different?

You know? And that's a way of showing, Hey, we can't disagree. It's okay. Or saying stuff like, hmm. Excuse me, I I didn't understand that term. Can you explain it? Kpi? That's not, that's ah, ah, that's key Performance indicator. Okay. This is a little bit fuzzy for me. Could you give me an example? Ah, okay.

Basically a number to measure if we are good doing right. [00:25:00] Ah, okay, now I got it. Thank you so much. You know, and, and that's one part is being the example and the second part will be and the second part will be to have a few ground rules to play. You know, like kids do this thing that works really well.

Whenever they meet, you know, they have really quickly, they do, they, they do stuff like, okay, you play bad cop, you play good cop, and I'm the prisoner, and if I'm on the stone, you can't catch me. Yeah. They spend just one second of a minute to do that and then they play four hours. And sometimes these ground rules kind of help.

And ground rules but also like mechanisms to speak up, you know, to, to have a way to say things in a maybe more indirect way, you know, instead of saying, shut up, this is not a topic for now being able to say, Hmm, I, I wonder if this will be a, to a topic that we could put in the [00:26:00] parking, which means basically the same thing, but which is a much more polite way to do it once you have set up that there is a parking somewhere in a meeting room where you can put sticky notes about stuff that are not relevant for now, but relevant for later.

So, so these are kind of like, and, and these psychological safety cards that I've shared with you here are a mix of these ground play these rules to play and these mechanisms mm-hmm. That help. To say difficult things in a more gentle way. Mm-hmm. Like, shut up. I don't understand. Please stop making jokes or this kind of stuff.

Daniela: Oh. Are you using them for your work as well? Like did you create them for, for us, for the community, or are you using them in

Daniele: work? So these basically are rules that I've developed over the years. Mm-hmm. I don't use them as cards per se. I use them [00:27:00] rather as introduction parts in the start of my workshops.

Okay, cool. Where I basically tell people. Okay. And depending on the meeting and the types of people, I don't use them all. I might use other elements, but some of the elements come always back. For example, one of the element that comes always is. One, one, which I learned the hard way, which was so that's the backstory of it, is I had a workshop thought, oh, best leaders.

And I thought, okay, so they are leaders so we can go quite quick. And they're paying me to come to explain stuff about Service Design, so I'm gonna just explain stuff about Service Design and do the workshop about that, because that's what they are paying me for. So let's go. And so I went and said, hello welcome, blah, blah, blah.

So that's what we are gonna do. And we did it. And basically what happened is that at the end someone told me, oh, but you know, it was very tough for me because this wasn't at all how we usually do it. And for me it was interesting because I was like, [00:28:00] oh, I missed, I missed the opportunity to tell something important.

Mm-hmm. Which I now do, which I is at the start of workshops with new people that I don't know. Usually what I say at the beginning, I say, okay, so this is a workshop that I do with specific methods, and it might be some, it might be new. Some parts might be new to you and therefore it's normal. if it tickles you sometimes as long as it tickles, it's okay.

That's means that you are a bit uncomfortable because it's new. But whenever it hurts, please tell me and will find ways to make you more comfortable. I see. And basically what, since then, I never had, again, that feedback from someone saying, but I, I don't change the way I do the workshop. I just say at the start, it is gonna be strange sometime.

It's by design, [00:29:00] it's normal, and if it's too weird for you, you are allowed to speak up. Yeah, it's, and just, and just having the, the right to speak up usually makes it that you don't use it, but you don't need it.

Daniela: Right. Yeah. Yeah. But it's good for them to know. It's like feeling, making them feeling more comfortable and yeah, it's just preparing them.

I think it's always a question of expectations also, of course. But then I, I understand that something like Service, Design can be quite I don't know, unsettling something is like you would if you never heard of it or if you're new to some ideas, can can cause some troubles, you know? And people like, especially people in some positions tend to be always a little bit skeptical.

So it's a, it's a good strategy. Yeah,

Daniele: definitely.

Daniela: I have one more resource for you. May I, is it okay if I share it for you with you? Absolutely. Yeah. But I have one about the business terminology stuff. And I'm gonna just paste it there. [00:30:00] It's it's an old thing that I created a few years ago, which is a dictionary of, of innovation terms, business terms, Service, Design terms.

Mm-hmm. And I think it has kinda like 400 terms in it. And which I basically took out from many different places and collected there, and where you can then go back to the original source. And I didn't, took, didn't take like the most academic definitions by design, but rather the definitions that were simple.

So it's not like you won't find the definitions where you read the definition and you need another dictionary to understand it. Yeah. But it's more like the very casual definitions that that help. And I think there is also like playlists in it where you can basically find the the business 101 terms.

Or Service Design 101 terms, or there is also one which I really like, which is a category of terms to impress people during their dinner parties, which is always fun because it's like stupid [00:31:00] terms, you know, like where people say, oh, this is fancy, you know, you're, you're very smart to impress, like addiction.

Exactly, exactly. Cause you know, we always need to do to, to, to do something to impress. Yeah,

absolutely.

Daniele: Well, thanks. I see, I see that we have Louis, we who joined us, but before we get to Louis, did that help you?

Daniela: Absolutely, yes, enormously thanks a lot. And it's very nice to see that, you know, of course there is some compatibility of as I, as I, as I first mentioned between what you just said and my experience, even though well the, the environment and my job was in many ways different.

Different. But I, I found I found myself in many things that you said and and it's good to know about the business side because of course, when you are new to a sector, you're always worried about like, what I should know, especially in some, something like Service Design which is so holistic and it's so open and, and also, you know, it's all about a process

[00:32:00] and you know, things like business or, well, I think.

And especially when you well, as a service designer, you might have to face stakeholders at a high level. Yeah. And you have to feel that at least you are prepared. So and, and again, it actually helped a lot in having some clarity because there is a lot of overlapping in my head Yeah. At this point.

And well, of course confu confusion. But it's not only a question of terminologies, really a question of seeing like how these two words in interplay and I, and I guess business design. And the other big one would be psychology that you, you threw in as well. So that's great. So yeah, thanks a lot, Daniella.

Daniele: That's very helpful. Do you have time that I share a last thing to you? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Good. Because I have one which I always love to share which is, let me find it. Because I have a course which is called what is Service? Design. And in there [00:33:00] I have a little picture that I made a few years ago, which I find always fun.

Just let me

find where it is. The Service Design family. Maybe that one. Okay. No.

Yes. Many members want purpose. It's that one. So let me share that with you.

So you, you might see this image. Yeah. So just tell to you basically what. How this happened is I was at a conference where people spoke about Service Design, and basically there was then a, a bit of a debate about what should we call it? And then one said, oh, it's called Service, Design, not the other. Was like, no, we do lean and agile stuff blah, blah, blah and what you do, you call yourself.

And and I got very bored in that [00:34:00] conversation because it lasted four hours about this, what, how should we call it? How do we call our jobs? Which is a very philosophical question. And you see I'm not very philosophical. And and basically in my head I was drawing that picture. I was really drawing that one, which was, you know, people, if you ask, what's your job title?

Mm-hmm. People give you many different names. And these names, they evolve over time. And they are different in countries, but also in companies and. And also personally you might call, like to call yourself something else and some that's your friends, but at the end, what do you do? It's like I try to make humans happy.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know? Or I try to make the world a better place in the end. It's usually all the same stuff, you know? And 80%, I would assume of the methodologies are exactly the same. You know, we use a lot of the same stuff than EV that everybody else. It's just the 20% that [00:35:00] might be a little bit different.

And maybe, and that's a very, and that's if we are very proud. If we are more conservative as well, I would say be, I would say like 95% of what we do is exactly the same as other people. It's the way we order it might be a bit different. Mm-hmm. And we might have a bit of extra sauce on it, you know, and in Service, Design, the extra sauce isn't that big.

You know, the extra sauce is maybe this view that. We consider not only the, the, the user, the end user, but we consider also the backstage, the employees, the stakeholders, you know? And that's maybe something that is a bit different from other places, where we really say that in a very clear way, that there are two sides, and that these two sides need to be considered both as important.

Mm-hmm. And outside of that, we just deal a lot, which is okay. You know, and we just be parted in [00:36:00] in another way. So that's why I would say your confusion is not so much a confusion is a good understanding. Mm-hmm. Because, because it, it feels confusing big too, is because it is confusing, you know? Yeah. The people who say Service Design starts here and UX starts here.

That's PE for at, in my understanding is people who don't understand the reality. Yeah. But people who understand the reality, they will say it's a bit blurry. Where bus the business starts where Service Design starts, where UX start, it's first, it's not so important. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and second it's, we all use the same tools in different ways and we, we arrange them.

And the most interesting question is like, what, what are we trying to do? And not so much what do we call it? But that's, again, it's a very personal thing. The terminology part is maybe sometimes a [00:37:00] bit can create wars.

Daniela: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much. It's been fantastic. Super insightful.

Thanks. Pleasure. I really, I really appreciate your, your presence, your time. And I think I was very lucky to have, like, I just, like, I use all, you know, in Asia, you know what they say. Daniella, you use all your luck today. So for today, no luck anymore for you. So that was my shot. I got it. So thanks a lot.

You are my luck today.

Daniele: I'm happy. I'm happy it was useful to you. Yeah. And if you want to go, you are, you're free to go obviously. But I see that Louis is here and so let just, and I will just say hi to Louis because he got the flu apparently. I see in the chat. So, hello Louis, are you here with us?

Luis Sereno: I'm very sorry. I got the flu and today I was feeling very sick. I took some medicine and now feeling a [00:38:00] little better. But I am really sorry. I, I don't know if you are finishing the, the session, but if you are I'm, I'm okay with so I, I don't know if you are finishing. It's okay. To I was going to just ask a little question.

I I have been countering very many critics of the design thinking approach. And I was curious to, to know how you feel about it. Many people have been championing the, the idea that sustain thinking is more of a more productive approach and have not the, the, the weakness of design thinking approach.

And I, I, I'm reading about systems thinking I like it, [00:39:00] but at the same time I am a little confused how you really explore the tools of systems thinking in real projects that are not of social nature.

Daniele: I think.

No, I just lost you. I think. Are you still here, Luis? Yes, I am here. Yes. Okay. So your, your question if I got it right is ISS is is systems thinking a better approach to design thinking, which is criticized a lot these days. Yeah. Yeah. And if yes, how can it be applied? Yes. Okay, cool. So first for your understanding, this call is recorded.

Yes. I will take pieces of that of that recording to share it then further with other people so that more people can benefit from this call. So that's an important information for you to know obviously, and yes, we did already [00:40:00] an hour, but today is a lucky day for you because my wife and my kid are not at home.

That's why I had the chance to make this this additional coaching session. So I am, I have a bit more time than I have usually, so and no worries. You know we are all sick from time to time. You shouldn't be ashamed of it or, or say sorry for being sick. It's it's always a good thing that you take care of you when you're sick, and that's a good example that you're giving us.

So I have more time. If you are happy to, to jump in for, for the, for a few more minutes, I'm, I'm happy to, to do it with you. Will that be okay for you? Okay. Okay. It's okay. Wonderful. And for you Daniella, if you want to stay, you are welcome to stay. No worries. But I know it's a bit, it can, and if you want to live in the middle, you can live in the middle.

No worries. You just leave whenever you feel you're not getting more value of it or you have or things to attend to. Is that okay for you? Absolutely.

Daniela: Thanks Daniele.

Daniele: And you know, [00:41:00] that's exactly the kind of psychological safety we sp we spoke about before. Yeah. It's like just creating the frame so that people feel comfortable.

Okay.

So if the question, so your question Louis, is I hear that many people say design thinking and therefore also Service. Design is something that has that has many flaws and system thinking is a more suited approach. And is it the case? And if yes, how should we apply it? So there is a big bias I have to reveal before I answer this question, which is I'm not assistant thinking practitioner.

So take everything I say with a big grain of salt. My understanding of it is small. So what I will say just is how I understand parts of it and how I, I, I deal with it. So basically for me there is, there is this part which is as always, you know, p people always [00:42:00] have this, this view of saying, let me say it like that.

When the iPad, when TV come, came out, people said, this is the end of radio, you know, and years later, what we see is radio is still something happening. What has changed is that radio isn't. The thing that is used for every type of sharing of communication. It has become more precise and more niche and more specific.

When tv when then the iPad came out, people said Books are dead. And I don't know you, but I have many books. And if we look at the background of Daniella, we see that there are many books and still she might own an iPad, but, but, and what does that this show is that whenever comes a new a new project, a new way of thinking, it doesn't replace completely the one from before.

It [00:43:00] just helps the one from before to be less general and more specific. And so, for example, with books the thing that changed it is that you don't. You don't print anymore. You know, like your manual of Photoshop, which is 120 page thing, you don't print that because it's easier to get as a pdf. You can search in it.

It's even easier to get it on the internet and it's more, but still reading a good book on the, on the on the beach, you know, there, I won't take my iPad because it will be, it, it will get broken. And I kind of enjoy this feeling of being outside with a very good book, you know, or having a book full of my family memories.

It's also something where the book has become very specialized and very good, and I think it's the same with design thinking versus system thinking, which is that [00:44:00] we should. This is, that system thinking helps us to not apply design thinking where it doesn't work so much, but it works still in many places.

And that's where I think I, I make a bit of a different approach. So in my opinion, system thinking is another great tool in our toolbox because it helps us to think about problems in a different way. And that's a very, a very good thing. And it forces and it forces things like design thinking or Service, Design to be more specific.

And so instead of being the one tool that you use for everything, if you know a bit about system thinking, you can recognize, oh, Here I'm in a problem that is very social, as you said. That is interacting [00:45:00] with many different people, miss cultures with also not just people, but also complete eco ecosystems.

You know thinking about nature, thinking about about cultures and this kind of stuff. Then system thinking is a much better tool than Service Design. But if you want to improve let's say you are working in a cafe and you want to improve the waiting time, then definitely Service Design is a very good tool and system thinking might get you thinking about stuff that is very interesting, but not very useful at that moment.

Same thing is if you use Service Design to solve these kind of very complex problems these weird problems, then you might end up with solutions that are very practical, but that solve only a tiny bit, and that might be even dangerous because then they have kind of domino effects in the [00:46:00] end, which might be a bit dangerous.

So in my personal work, which is usually rather on the, the, the simple problems I kind of like this, this part of the world. Let me, let me do a bit of a sketch here. So you, you see the mirror board, is that correct, Luis? Yes, yes. Good. Wonderful. So, one thing I usually have is like, so if we say there is the, the level of impact and the, and the level of effort, and you might have seen that a thousand times.

And usually what people are doing. So if we cut that like that, usually people want here, you know, they want the most impact, et cetera and they're willing to do a lot of work. What I try to do is rather the part which is here, which is just here, you know, which is, it's a [00:47:00] very, very, very, very, very tiny effort, or let's correct it.

What I'd like to do is this part exactly here where it's good enough impact, but basically no effort. And that's what I try to do, which is very simple stuff, you know? And because the part here is sometimes very philosophical, it's more dreams, you know, you doesn't always work. But if we can get here or sometimes, or somewhere here, Then Service Design is very, very helpful here, and I think that's basically why I would highly recommend, you know, if if you feel this system thinking is something that you are, that, that you recognize a lot of critiques that you agree with, you know, go on learn it so that you can then say, this is a moment where I apply rather my system thinking approach.

And this is a moment where I apply rather design thinking approach. You know, [00:48:00] like in your kitchen, you don't have just salt for everything. You know, there are some things that need sugar and having both, sometimes you even have to mix them together. And w would it be interesting for you to see how system thinking and Service Design can mix together?

Is that something that you would be interested in?

Luis Sereno: I'm sorry, the dog is barking. Very lovely.

Daniele: Can you repeat the question? No worries. Would you be interested in seeing how Service Design and system thinking can also be merged together? I'm, I'm

Luis Sereno: bringing, I have been reading a book from Sheryl Cababa I don't know if you know her.

It's basically a book about mixing design thinking with systems thinking. Great. It's interesting, but I think you, you have made a good point because we do [00:49:00] not always have to, to take care of so much. And so a big problem like, for example, homelessness or service for homeless people to, to to eat the, the, these are very complex problems that perhaps systems thinking have a more suitable approach.

Definitely. But I, I agree with you. I think for other problems, like for example, you said the cafe I think the design thing, I think Service, Design, as we know with today have more helpful tools and more helpful approach too. Mm-hmm. So I, I'm, I'm liking where you are going. I think you, you have answered very in a very good[00:50:00] view.

And I'm, I'm sorry too because English is not my, my first language

Daniele: and No worries. You deny

Luis Sereno: and sometimes I, I, I have, have not the, I have not having much opportunity to use it. Yeah. So it's a little bit rusty. But, but I, I think I, I, I like the approach. You, you are you are having I don't dunno if I

Daniele: answered your question.

Yes, yes. You answered it very well. Maybe one thing that I'd like to add as you're speaking for me, comes this clarity that it's, it's not Service, Design or design or design or it's not, the question is not so much should I use system thinking and not use any more Service Design, or should I use Service Design and not system thinking, but rather the options [00:51:00] are much larger, which is for simple, for simple problems, use Service Design.

Yeah, for complex issues, use system thinking,

and in the middle you can always mix, you can always mix them together somewhere. Yeah. And I think that's a bit of the difference that I try to, whenever I try to, whenever I teach in universities and this, and, and, and, and design schools when students start, often they are in a, in a, what I call ayatollahs of methods, you know, or pastors of methods where they say, this is right, this is wrong.

And what I try to teach them is there is no right nor wrong. It's. It's, you just have to use things and learn how to use them and adapt them to your contexts. So, and, and here's basically the saying. It's not saying that all of Service [00:52:00] Design is shit or all of system thinking is shit. But rather to say there are moments where Service Design is really shitty and we should be smart enough to acknowledge when it's a good tool and when not.

And sometimes we need two tools to get to the solution. And here it is again, this image of saying it's salt and sugar. Sometimes you want to make something sugary then use sugar. Sometimes you want to make something salty, then use salt. And sometimes you want to make the best bolognese like my nonna does, and you have to put some sugar in the bologna sauces to go with the salt because that's what makes her bolognese so, so good.

And I think that's basically the same thing here.

Luis Sereno: I think it's a very sensible answer. And I like the, the bolognese metaphor. I think you, you, you really made a good [00:53:00] example. I, I understand. I think I was feeling a bit Overwhelm it. Sometimes you just have too many things to, to learn too many things, to to, to be aware about.

And it, it makes us feel crushed by, by the, the quantity of thanks to learn the, the quantity thanks to, to use and this feeling of overwhelming. I think you, you helped a lot with your answer. I, I'm very glad to, to hear you. It was really, really, really helpful for me.

Daniele: But my pleasure.

Do you have any, anything else you'd like to discuss? I

Luis Sereno: was thinking about the so there's so many [00:54:00] tools on the, the toolbox. Yeah. I was thinking about what, what do you normally use in your toolbox? What, what do you think? It's for example, now I am getting to a job with clothing store.

Mm-hmm. And I was thinking how, how can approach

Daniele: it?

Luis Sereno: And I started to, to. Make a list of, of tools. Like I said, one, one of the problems I, I have facing now it's the, this anxious about about tools, about methodologies. I, I think it's a bit, bit of imposter syndrome, where you, you think, okay, do I really know enough to, to tackle the, the problems?

And [00:55:00] it's, it's a bit, like I said, overwhelming. And I got to, to a post where people have used some examples of of tools of Service Design and trying to, to, to find it here. Let, let

Daniele: me just

Luis Sereno: try to, I, I was sending this to a girl, but let me see, let me see.

Daniele: Yes, I found it.

Luis Sereno: So for example this post was saying that for discovery mapping there's some tools I know of them, all of them, but let me see. Star one, one tool that I'm I'm curious about. It's when to[00:56:00] use a stakeholder map or a access ecosystem map.

Daniele: Mm-hmm. Okay. So you have basically two, three questions.

Let me write them down. When to use a stakeholder map code system map. So basically, if I understand you correctly, you, you're having, you, you ha you have three questions. One, which is I'm getting overwhelmed by the amount of tools. Which tools do you use? What, which will be one? The other question is I sometimes struggle with my imposter swim drawn and feel that I don't know enough to tackle the problems.

How can I manage that? And the other one, which is a very practical one, which is when should I use a stakeholder pipe or ecosystem map? Did I get you right Luis? Yes. Yes. You, you got it. Okay, wonderful. So let's maybe let's start with the first one.

So if you, if you say I'm [00:57:00] getting overwhelmed, the amount of tools, which tools do you use?

It's quite simple. I have to say. I don't use many tools. I don't use many tools and the tools that I usually use are just a few, which are interviews. That's something that I use a lot. Workshops, that's something that I use a lot. And good old sticky notes in all the formats you want. Digital, non-digital, et cetera.

And that's something. And just writing, that's basically, if we summarize it, that's the most of what I do is comprising that kind of stuff. Because sticky notes help me to map things to sensitize information, to make synthesis. So basically to say, oh, now I understand what people are saying to me.

With workshops, what I can do is bring people together and [00:58:00] make them find solutions together. And interviews are basically trying to understand people. And writing is basically what I use to understand what I learned, share what I learned, propose plans for the future, and if I'm very, so that's kind of like.

The, the simplest answer is I don't use so many tools myself. I still like to look at what are the new tools that come out because I'm a bit of a geek, so therefore I am I'm very curious to see what are the new things that come out. But I don't change my toolbox as often. And the image that I'd like to share is this one is a carpenter can build a house with just a few tools, and it's amazing that they can build a house, a [00:59:00] church something gigantic with just a hammer I don't know the terms in English, but, you know, things to, to, to, to sell.

And a few things like that. It's not 200 different tools, you know, it's a few dozens and they can build whole houses with that. And I think in the world of design it's not so different. You know, there's a few good tools that you know very well. That's the difference is if you know the tools very well, then you can use them a lot and to create very good stuff.

And that's the image that I, I, I like to give, is, yes, it's important to know that there are different tools cuz so that you know that when you are in a situation where you feel the tools I have don't really help me at this moment, oh, I've, I've seen that there are these tools that could help me, so now I'm gonna learn a, use a new one.

And so that's basically the, [01:00:00] at the stage I am, I'm more in the stage where I feel I have my basic tool toolbox set up. And every year I might add a new thing where I feel, oh, this is something, this, this is something that I really want to master. And then I really learn it deeply. And otherwise I still stay curious, you know, and look and go.

Like in French we say window shopping, you know, words, it's, you go and you look in the window and say, this would be nice, but you don't buy it. You know, but you still imagine yourself using it and say, I, I would be nice in that suit, you know, and, and you just keep it in your memory. And today you have a wedding, you know, where you go by your suit.

And I think that's basically the same relationship I have with two where I do a lot of window shopping. But I'm quite reluctant at the moment to just use many new things because I can do a lot with already with what I have. But step if there is something that I feel is [01:01:00] really helpful in that project that might be new sure I can use it, but I feel that a lot of the times these are the, the, the, the, the big tools that I use.

And then there are valuations of it for obviously workshops. You have many different types of workshops and many different flavors of it. But but yeah, that's basically the few tools I use. And maybe that's also, we've been looking back, I think I've been, I've changed a bit with the years, I have to say like five years ago, I would say that I was still in a phase where whenever I had to design a workshop, I wanted it to be totally different from each workshop I made before, you know I was in this phase where I still wanted everything to be very custom very special.

And now in my, I'm in a phase, I call it being older or more mature. I don't know. But I'm in a phase where I reuse more stuff that I have used in the past where instead [01:02:00] of just rebuilding new things again and again and again, I'm like, oh, I created this thing and so I'm gonna reuse it maybe 5, 6, 7, 10 times and tweak it a little bit.

And that's a bit another another way of working with tools. And I think that's the difference here is that you, you are in phases of your job. You know, when you start, you're really in a, in a period where you just want to try everything, you know, and suddenly when you are arrive at the stage where you have tried a lot, you see what really works.

And, and once you get to that, then you stay a bit more a bit more close to the things like in relationships. You know, when you're very young, you, you invest time with many people and the older you get, the closer you get maybe to your family or your few friends because you invest more in these relationships than trying to get [01:03:00] a ton of new, new relationships.

And I think it's basically the same as tools. Does that answer your question, Luis?

Luis Sereno: Yes. I think I am. I'm not only got the flu, I got Linkedin sickness.

Daniele: Yes, absolutely. Fomo. Cause

Luis Sereno: you, you are always seeing someone talking about this and that too, and you feel like, okay. And, and this is invading inva invading the, the following question that is the imposter syndrome.

Because you you, you think, well, am I really prepared? Because there is, there is that two, I don't know that two. Mm-hmm. There's that another two, and I, I also don't know these two. And [01:04:00] people are sharing the, all the time. Oh, I, I,

I learned so much in that that course. Yeah. And this and that is what I, I have learned and these tools and these methods, and I think it's.

Is that the feeling of overwhelming that I, I was talking about and this leads to, to the imposter syndrome. And, and I, I think you, you have answered well my question, and I think you a little bit answered the imposter syndrome question already because like I said this feeling of over overwhelming leads to

Daniele: the imposter syndrome.

Yes, yes, yes. And I think if we go on this question, you know, do I know enough to tackle the problems? How do I know, how do I manage my imposter syndrome? I think,[01:05:00] let me say it like that is one thing that can help is go less on social media. It just helps, you know, I don't say go, don't go on social media, but rather to rather to say, Hey, if you go once, once every two days, once a week on it, you know, and you just look at what's there.

You'll get, you know, all the news and the interesting stuff, but without this constant feedback of, I don't know, stuff, you know, because basically social media gives you this, this feedback that you know less than someone else, but you don't remember that that you know also more than someone else. You know, social media doesn't give you that feedback.

It doesn't tell you, Hey, you already know so much. And you are already so great that it, it's not helping you in that [01:06:00] direction. It's helping you to see what you miss. And this, which is, which is not a problem as long as you do it only a few times per week because then it's really helpful to see, hey I see that Daniella has discovered a new tool, and I'm gonna look at it and I'm gonna look at a few things and I will maybe have this feeling that, oh, Daniella is so much more awesome than me, but it's just gonna be this one hour during the one, during the week.

And not this constant feedback. And I think we have to, to be, to be a bit, a bit more mindful with that kind of stuff. So that's maybe the one thing. And the other thing at least that helps me is you know, showing, you know, your limits at the start of the project. So let me just write that down.

Showing your limits at the start. Project. So whenever I feel I have this, I feel that I'm not the right person to do something. I tell people, [01:07:00] you know as I told you, you know, you said, you asked me a question about system thinking and I told you I'm biased. This is what I know. I know little, but this is the answer I can give you.

You know, and in projects sometimes I do the same where I say, this is a very complex project. What I can bring as value is this, is this helpful? And if yes, we can start a project together. And my limits are these, this is where my knowledge goes. It goes from here to there. And I can help until there.

If that's what you want, wonderful. Let's work together. But if you want someone that is above that, on that line, then wonderful. Find someone else, you know, and, which is a very good thing to do because usually people say, Oh, no, no, no, no. We just want to work with you, Luis, because you're a great guy. You know, we don't care how much you know now because you're gonna learn a lot, obviously.

We just want you because you're a [01:08:00] curious guy and we like you. And I think that's something that helps me usually is to reveal the limits I have because by revealing their limits, I have people usually reveal to me the real reason why they wanted to work with me, which usually wasn't my knowledge, but rather my, my way of working.

That's something that I discovered. Also, not so long ago, I asked a few people who came back to me always, who always come back to me to facilitate workshops and and I asked them, but why do you come to me for workshops? And you know, there are reasons. Why not? Because I'm the most, because I'm very skilled in my, in my way of working or because I bring always new stuff, which I think wa which I thought was this, the, the reasons that they got with me.

It's just that you are a nice guy to work with. It's so easy to work with you and you are so reassuring. [01:09:00] We've worked with other people and we felt unsure, and you just give us the feeling that it's gonna go well and that has no price. And plus you're just funny man. And, and you're like, okay, so you're paying me 1012 1,800 bucks a day because I'm a nice guy who's fun and who is a bit reassuring.

And, and, and, and that's a good, good, funny thing. So maybe that's an exercise you can do is ask people who work with you and like you, you know, what do they like? And you will be surprised. It has nothing to do with how knowledgeable you are or how smart you are. But usually it's more about character. It's like, oh, your energy, it's your smile.

You know, my wife people, my wife is a pastor. And usually what people [01:10:00] tell her as feedback after she has made a very good talk at the service is not, oh, this was so in insightful. It changed my life. Or, or when you spoke about that verse in the Bible, it really changed my view of the world. Usually people go to her and say, you have a wonderful smile.

Which is good, you know, it's, they got really into it so much because he has such a brilliant smile. And yes that was for them also a, a sign of the moment they shared with God. But it's very practical. It's very, it's more the character side and it's it's very humbling in a way. But it brings you back to the, to the basic stuff, which is, you know, you don't know so much and it's not so important because what is important is, is your character.

And that's why people like to work with you. And sometimes only just your time. That's, that's even the more, the more humbling thing is when you, they tell people I don't know, that it's like, we [01:11:00] don't give a fuck. We, you, we just need someone to do the work and to spend the time and you have the time, so it's okay, and you'll learn.

That's okay. I think that's, so that's stuff that helps me to tackle that imposter syndrome. But in the end, let me also say that to you from times to time, I have people who come to me and say, wow, Daniele, you are so knowledgeable and, you know, stuff and shit and things, and you brought books and you're teaching at universities.

Wow. And, and, and, you know, all, all one, my reaction when they tell me that is in the back of my head, I have a little voice that tells me they don't know. That you don't know. They don't know what, that you don't know what you're doing, and they don't know that you shouldn't be there, you know? And so this imposter syndrome is also a positive thing, and that is a positive thing that stays [01:12:00] because it helps us to stay curious.

So at the same time, we have to fight it, you know, when it's, when it goes into the part which is dark, you know, and which makes us feel like less than what we are and stops us from being curious and working because we feel we are not allowed to. But when it's something that motivates us to say, I can know more.

I should know more, I, I have still possibilities to learn and grow, then it's something very positive, you know, and that you can nurture in a way that say, okay, I'm gonna continue to learn because I know I'm not perfect and I know I will never be. And so it's not trying to remove the imposter cent, but rather to use it as a positive force that makes you go forward.

What was very philosophical, sorry for that, but but Sometimes with this kind of stuff, it's it's, it is a bit philosophical where it's not [01:13:00] like imposter syndrome is a bad thing or it is the, but rather say, Hey, that's something that we have to learn to deal with and take out the bad parts.

But it will not go away. Yeah's bad. The, the sad news. But if you can manage it, it's a good news. How does that feel to use toys?

Luis Sereno: I, I feel better. I feel better. I think you also answer this question very

Daniele: sensible sensibly in

Luis Sereno: a very sensible way. I think

Daniele: I

Luis Sereno: think I, I, I was feeling that because I was searching for a job recently.

Yeah. And so I was going to li linking Every day and many hours of day. Of a day. Yeah. So this, this problems, I, I was feeling about the tools about about imposter syndrome is a collateral effect of the, the [01:14:00] many times I was u using

Daniele: the, the many hours I was

Luis Sereno: using linking. So I think, I feel, I think I feel better now listen to you, to your experience in in dealing with these problems and you.

You are very practical. And I think, I think it's a, a good way to, to see those questions. And I don't mind you being philosophical. I think this, this question is a bit philosophical also, and the, the answer can get a bit philosophical too because of that. So it's no problem that you, you, you were philosophical about how you deal with it, and I, I, I was charmed about the, the, the story of your wife.

So [01:15:00] the smile is, is a great thing. And and sometimes is All you need to, to, to feel better. Someone that can make you feel reassured, make you feel nice and secure. And, and you all, you have the same experience too. Also, the, the, the people that tell you that you are a funny guy, that you are you are here sharing.

I think it's, it's a great example of of how things are in, in real life and not so much in, in social media, in and all this sometimes garbage that we care ab about So, so I think it's, it's a good way to, to see things. I'm really glad that you shared your [01:16:00] experiencing that that

Daniele: problem.

I think there, there is, there is another point which is quite important to add here based on if you are looking for a job you might feel a big imposter syndrome. Why? Because job offers, you know, usually list all what you, what they expect for that candidate and what people think. Or sometimes where people make a mistake is when they read the job offers, they read, I should be this person.

But it's not a job offer is a job description is not the description of a person. It's a wishlist to Santa Klau of the per perfect person. They'd like to have. And so in a wishlist, usually you have things that in the end, you will never get. It's like when I made a wishlist to my parents when I was a kid and they said, I want to have a PS five, which at the time didn't [01:17:00] exist.

You know, maybe they didn't got me this, but they get me, you know, a set of cards. But they still, but still, I was happy because I get something to play. And I think it's the same with with job offers where the you know, companies put out this, we want all of that, and then they get in conversation with someone and then they say, oh, it's not exactly what we dreamt of, but that's this, this person is good enough for what we want.

It's the right person for that. And we didn't know that we wanted that type of person, but we had to go through the motions of. Making our wishlists to then get some gifts. And I think it's the same thing, but the problem is that when you read all of these and you read these job offers not as wishlists from companies, but as you have to be like that, you can feel very shitty because you're comparing yourself to a wishlist, which is not [01:18:00] possible because it's like it's dreamlike figures, you know, it's, it's got like figures of work and nobody is like that.

You know, nobody has 30 years of experience in all of these fields and can do all of the practical things plus all the philosophical things, plus all of the business things. That's, that's normal. But still it's important that the companies part allow these elements so that you can say, I can answer in your wishlist to this, this, and this, and I can learn to this and this, but I can't help you with that.

And that's exactly what the wishlist is for, is as your, your parents do the same, or as a parent you do the same. Your kid brings you a wishlist and you say, okay, this, yes, we can give you a set of cards. Wonderful. You want a new house? Forget it. You want a dog? No way. And and, and then you start to negotiate.

And so, but so the, I think here again, job [01:19:00] offers, the way we read them can create a lot of this imposter syndrome and reminding ourselves that it's just a wishlist can lower this, this, this fear of, oh my God, I don't, I don't know shit. I'm not good. Good enough. Right.

Luis Sereno: I, I think that my little experience I, I'm not as, I'm not as seasoned as you, you are or other people because I, I am, I have moved to Service Design recently.

Daniele: In

Luis Sereno: relative terms I have not that many, many years of experience. Mm-hmm. So I think that it's also something that play a role and the perce the perception that I have about

Daniele: myself. Might I ask something? How old are you? 32. 32. Okay. And [01:20:00] there are approximately 365 days in one year. So you have the experience of 11,680 days on Earth.

That's quite a good level of experience, I would say. Right? You know, it's, and, and, and, and, and that's, that's always what I try to tell people who transition to Service Design and say I have no experience. I say no, you bring a lot. You just, now you're, it's like learning a new language. It's not that you don't know any language is you learn a new one and you can use bits of what, of the past languages that you know, because it's like learning if you know Italian learning French, it's basically that when you learn a new job as long as you are not going from From nuclear scientist to garbage collector.

Yeah, that's very two d very two different ways. [01:21:00] But as long as you stay in jobs where you have to deal with people, it's like you're staying in this Latin world maybe of languages and you go from French to Italian and there is a lot of things that you can bring with you, even if it at the start doesn't feel like, it feels like it's a completely new language.

But the more you get into it, the more you feel. Oh, it's interesting. We say the this thing and this thing is basically the same. We just pronounce it differently, but it's written in the same way. It's so, it's basically the same. And so I think you, you will soon discover that it's not as different as as that, and that your 11,680.

Days of experience of life will be tremendously useful. Right?

Luis Sereno: You are right. I think it's a, it's a really good answer to, [01:22:00] to that. It's a bit a bit, I'm a bit fearful about my, my lyric experience, but when you look in other way, like you were saying this is not the, the, the only experience I have in life.

I, I have. I have been a wax designer for many years, and so I, I think I can bring some of the things I learned as wax designer to my practice of Service Design. And so it's not like I'm, I'm just beginning now. It's like I have been collecting experiences through, through fault of my life. So you, you, you are right.

I think it's the good

Daniele: answer too. And, and maybe a last point on that before we jump to your last [01:23:00] question is, especially when you transition from ux to Service Design or similar practices, you know, business design to Service Design or graphic design to Service Design or innovation to Service, Design you know these kind of fields.

I think there is something that people forget, which is that if you changed jobs in your, within your field, you might have experienced that, that when you change company, it feels like changing completely. This changing discipline. Sometimes like, like the way a company does UX and how another company does UX is sometimes so different that it feels like changing discipline.

And so therefore for me, someone who changes from UX to Service Design, I'm like trying just to remind them, do you remember when you change job from one company to another, how it was also a bit difficult because they had very different ways of doing the same thing, [01:24:00] you know, like the way they said, oh in our company we do interviews in that way.

And in the other one they said, no, you have to do it in that way. It's very different and I think the same will happen when you go from UX to Service Design as when you go from a UX company to another UX company. And so it's, it's, it's the, the, the, the terms obviously change a bit more, but but still the level of change is, is is quite similar.

It's quite quite as big. But, but let's maybe go on your last question, which is when to use a stakeholder map or an ecosystem map Here I, again, I have to say it's not a tool I use so often. So it's the one few moments I had to use. It is whenever I feel, and it doesn't happen so much, is whenever I feel I need to better understand the context I'm working in.

And then having a stakeholder map really [01:25:00] helps just to, and not to do it myself, but rather to, to go to people and say Hey, can you show me how, how the company works? Where are people and who are the people involved in this project? Then it's something that is really helpful. And also then to compare the different views and say, okay, these are the different views that are within the company.

On my level of the type of work I do, it's not something that I use as much, but again, if you work on very complex projects, that can be something that can be more useful to understand the complexity of the, of the, the ecosystem you're working with. But again IM here very practical. Which means I work usually on problems which are simple enough that these types of tools are not so helpful.

Again, if we take the [01:26:00] example of a, you're trying to improve the waiting time of a cafe, making a stakeholder map or ecosystem map will not help you so much. I believe it might even create more chaos in your head. It might create a bit of an information overload when you don't need as much information sometimes.

And so the question always when you use such tools, which are mapping tools is always the question, will more information help me better do my job? And sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes the answer is no. Especially with stuff like stakeholder map or ecosystem maps.