This is a copy of the Service Design Newsletter I sent on September 29th 2023. You can join the Service Design newsletter here to get future updates directly in your inbox.

Hi lovely human 👋

This week, I've worked on this new Service Design content that I'd love to share with you:

• A video from my international book tour 🇮🇳 📘 (with the full transcript below)

• An invitation to my birthday party the next webinar on Crowd Innovation with Vanessa Monstein 🎂

• 5 new answers to Service Design Questions (about teaching and learning design 🎓, workshops ⚡️ AI 🤖 and company values ⭐️).

Greetings from Switzlerland,

Daniele 🧔🏻‍♂️
p.s. As always, you'll find all below for when you have the time to read this newsletter.

How Can You Surprise The People You Serve?

As you might know, I'm doing an international pre-release book tour. The first stop? India! With the lovely Juneza Niyazi.

Juneza is the author of the book "Navigating Service Design" and a fellow Service Design practitioner.

With Juneza, we discuss the chapter "How Can You Surprise The People You Serve?"

This conversation led us to explore topics like: 

• How to make experiences more human at scale? 

• How to react with grace when you can't help a customer? 

• How bad metrics can break customer experiences?

I hope you'll enjoy that conversation as much as I loved it!

Thanks again Juneza for sharing all your knowledge so generously with the community!

p.s. prefer reading the transcript to watching the video? At the end of this email, I've added the full automated transcript 👇

My after birthday party this Wednesday

"What can I do for the community?"

These words and what came out of it feel like a birthday gift to me.

The day after my birthday, I'll get the chance to chat with Vanessa Monstein about her experiments of working with crowds to improve services.

How did that happen?
It started by a question from Vanessa that said:

"What can I do for the community?"

We talked over the phone, and one thing became quickly clear.

Vanessa has a lot to share, and she is super enthusiastic about Service Design

Months after that conversation, the gift is wrapped and ready to be shared with the community.

So join me in my after-birthday party 🎁

Save your spot for free now

New Service Design Questions

I'm slowly building a library of answers to the most common questions about Service Design. Here are the new ones:

1. Will AI remplace Service Designers?

2. What are bachelor programs that teach Service Design?

3. How can I facilitate workshops with a lot of participants?

4. How can I use company values in my Service Design work?

5. How do I teach design methods? I don't.

Service Design Brain

I continue to work hard on building a central "brain" with all my Service Design content. Here's the progress I made on this gigantic task:

There are now 820+ pieces of knowledge in the brain 🦾

• Service Design in Switzerland: imported 13 answers for a total of 17 knowledge pieces

• Service Design Principles: imported 40 answers for a total of 41 knowledge pieces

The full transcript of my conversation with Juneza

This transcript was generated using Descript. So it might contain some creative mistakes.

Daniele: I've sent my next book in advance to Service Design nerds from all around the world to see What resonates What can be improved and How to go further after you read that book.

In this first stop of this international book tour, we go to India to discuss the chapter: How can you surprise the people you serve? with Juneza Niyazi. Juneza is a Service Design practitioner who also wrote the book Navigating Service Design.

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

How to make experiences more human at scale?

How to react with grace when you can't help a customer?

How bad metrics can break customer experiences? Thanks so much to Juneza for this lovely book critic and insightful conversation.

Daniele: I'm super excited to have you here, Juneza.

Thank you so much.

I have invited you because you are a fellow author on service design, you've gone through the pain of writing a book, so you can relate to how much it sucks to do it.

Yes. And, and you are also someone who practices service design.

Juneza: Absolutely.

Meet Juneza

Daniele: When you are in a birthday party and you meet the cousin of a cousin: How do you present yourself usually?

Juneza: So I'm going to introduce myself. Not as a service designer to this person, I would say, Hey, I'm Juneza. I essentially work with experiences and currently I'm working at a space where we are trying to create a very transparent experience for smallholder farmers in Indonesia, where we're ensuring that they get the value for the service that they are doing for the world.

So that's where I work and that's what I do. And yep that's how I would introduce myself.

Daniele: And as your friend who is next to you in that birthday party, I will then jump in and say, Juneza, you have to talk to him about your book. Maybe just tell us about your book a little bit.

Juneza's book

Juneza: So I have my book right here. So this is my book, which I usually carry in my bag because I have a lot of people asking me what service design is. So I pull the book out and I read the first part of what is service design in my book.

So what I have tried to articulate in this book is essentially to help a lot of designers who are trying to transition into the industry that they want to work in, to give a glimpse of what it is to be a service designer in the industry.

I don't. Consider myself as a great educator.

I have this imposter syndrome where I don't think I'm ready to tell someone what a good service design is or how to design a service. So I would say that:

This is a collection of my experiences and of other co-service designers who've worked specifically in the Indian service sector.

So the book is specifically for the target audience who wants to be service designers in India. Because the challenges are different, the company structures are different, hierarchies are very different. So how you work within those Indian domain is what the book captures. So yep, that's essentially what my book is about.

Impostor Syndrom and sharing knowledge

Juneza: I love how

Daniele: we all struggle with imposter syndrome, even the smartest people just like you, because I read the book and it's full of very smart stuff and it's funny to to hear that you're also struggling with that thing. And I think we will struggle with that all

Juneza: our life.

I don't know when you can call yourself an educator because I personally feel that we're always learning. And maybe I can say that. I am more of a person who would like to share so that someone does not have to go through the same journey I did. If I've learned something, they can pick it up from there.

So I would call myself more as a person who would like to co learn with somebody else. So I'm just documenting what I've learned so somebody else can pick it up from there.

A book to discover the indian service culture

Daniele: That's awesome. And I have to say I've read the book and I'm not planning to go to work in India in the next days, but still I got a lot of it because I think it's interesting for people outside of India to, or to just have a bit of a view in another culture.

And I think it's quite interesting to see, ah, wow, okay, these are other challenges, other ways of thinking, and how the idea of service is also embedded in the culture in a different way. This was for me something which was like a travel, where you're traveling with a book.

Where you learn stuff about your profession, but at the same time, it's like a little bit of a travel. So I can highly recommend it also for people who are not yet wanting to go to work in India and are happy at home, but who like to travel a bit with a book that, that still gets them tips about their profession.

Juneza: True, absolutely. So in that context a bit that I've written in the book about experiences In India, we have this term called Atiti Devo Bhava. It's a Hindi word. It means: Your guests are your God. So your customers is your God. It's something that's very ingrained in our culture.

And that is something that we're now trying to get into the businesses and the services that we're providing. So yeah, India has a lot of experience in taking care of your customer very ingrained in our culture. So that's essentially what the book is about.

Service Design Principles Book Review

Daniele: So lovely. Knowing all of that, you're the perfect person to chat a bit about the next book I'm writing which is called Service Design Principles 301 to 400.

And you've been able to read the chapter, How Can You Surprise the People You Serve?

Is there something that resonated with you that you thought, Oh, this is quite interesting?

The Good Stuff

Juneza: I did resonate with quite a few of the ideas in the book, especially there was this principle that mentioned prove with a human touch that this isn't automated. That was a very interesting chapter because you have given a really good example about how you send a personal mail to the people who purchase your product. So that was a very wonderful touch point that you focused upon.

But something that made me start thinking about it is I've worked in a domain where it's a very early startup, which maybe there's around 12 to 20 member team versus in bigger organizations, which is an MNC structure, where to scale an idea like this would be extremely difficult.

So that also made me think that, how do we get. People who maybe they're directly interacting with our customers or sending emails to our customers to actually care.

So there was another principle that I came across in another book, which said, your customers come second. So I was very curious, why would they say your customers come second, but then when I read your chapter, I realized.

Maybe they do, because if the company took care of their employees and the value system that the company built with their employees would then eventually translate to a customer, right? Because why do we have automated messages today? Because it's easier to control the conversation, the tone of voice, and we know that the response that our customer is getting when they're asked, when they have a query, or if they have a concern, it's a consistent emotion.

Versus if we leave it to another human, we don't know what that emotion would be. That person might have had a bad day, they might, that would reflect in that email. If that person had a great day, that'll reflect in that mail. So in order to avoid the gray areas is where mostly companies try to automate this.

This has actually triggered a thought in me as to how do we get more people to care for a customer that's speaking to them and how do we get them to essentially move from an automated system to a personal touch?

Yeah, that's something that this particular chapter made me think and question the scalability and how do we ideally get companies to scale this.

Daniele: Sometimes I think we have this kind of weird perception with automation. We feel that it's a robot speaking to us. Where at the start, it's a, it's someone who's a human who said, Oh, I'm going to write a message for me, just to many people, and so at the start, it's still a human experience that we are designing at scale, and therefore, I think even with something that's is automated, you still can prove that it was a human writing it, or that there is human intention behind it.

We need to stop being in the, is it human or automated, and seeing that there is a gray area in the middle where it can be something where you say, Hey.

It's a notification which is written like a friend would write you the notification and not like an automated system would say it like you made error 443 problem

instead: oh there seems to be an error here is how you could solve it and if You want to share that error with someone, here is a specific code that we use to know what it is, and this can be quite useful if you send it to us.

So it's understanding that it can be automated, but you could add a human touch that shows that the guy who wrote the automated message really cared.

Juneza: So it's mostly the tone of voice that you're suggesting that it has to be translated into a human conversation rather than a robot giving us a direction, right?

Daniele: As you say, the question of scale isn't the one that is touching me as much at the moment. Therefore it's not one that I was sensible to. But as you're working more on a bigger scale, I see that the principle then needs to be adapted. To be more: Prove that the message was created by someone who cares. And how can you show that care?

For example, one question I'm asking myself is in your case would it make sense that even if the message is automated, In the signature of the email, you have the photo of the guy, and you say, ah, okay, this is Juneza, she looks like that, okay, I still have an image of who that could be, and and having the hi and signature of Juneza, and if you respond, then it goes directly to the email of Juneza and not to the support at company. com.

This could be simple things that you still can do at a scale, but that still will show that you. Yes, we send it in an automated way, but if you answer and you need something, then we jump in.

Juneza: So I'll give you another use case. This is a very interesting lens through which I'm going to redraft your sentence.

So today when you see customer support systems for health insurance, I don't know how it is where you are. In India, at least I'm giving you context from an Indian perspective. We have customer support for health insurance, banks any service, right? When you have a person behind that call, and when you ask them, hey, I have this issue, or I have this query, even though it's a human behind that call, they talk like a machine.

They say, hey, what, this is your issue. I can solve it. I can't solve it. I will send you a mail. Okay, bye. And they click the call.

So how do you get, even when there is a human behind that entire channel, to get them to act as human and not as a machine, right?

So most of the times. I think we're looking into automation because we can't trust the human behind the channel.

So that's something that I've been thinking about. What is your take on that?

Daniele: I love the philosophical question:

How can we, through automation, remind people that they are human?

When they are in the machine, and, they receive 200 calls and they're just like, okay I'm just going to have to go through it.

Just give them the reminder. This is another guy. Who has kids, who has problems, who is in a hurry, and giving your name could be quite nice, and say, hello, how are you? It's something that could be helpful. Obviously, based on the cultures, it's a bit different. For example, in Switzerland, having someone at the phone asking you how you are and you don't know them is very strange.

But if you do that in the States, in the States they have this thing where it's hi, I'm Pam. How are you today? Yeah. Which for them is totally normal for us. It'll not be like, Hey, this is my personal life. Fuck off. Yeah. Which obviously culturally is a bit different, but it's interesting question.

How do we add space for people in the automation, to be a bit more human, like how can we add a break or add a pause where it's like, Hey, before you take the talk, the call, remember this guy had a bad day. Okay. Yeah. Do you have ideas on how to do that?

Juneza: So at least my experience has been that most companies provide scripts because their KPIs are to have X amount of calls per day and solve X amount of problems. So this was something that I read in another book, which said that if your KPIs are to close calls, then the person behind that particular channel is focused on hitting those KPIs versus if your KPIs are on customer satisfaction, maybe they would put in a little bit more effort to ensure that the customer is having a good time.

Because today I even hear customer support teams saying that, Hey, can you give me a five rating? That's how they end the call. They start with saying, Hey, and this is your issue. Great. I was able to solve it. I was not able to solve it. Oh, by the way, can you give me a five rating for this? It's a little scripted.

Now you know that there is a need for that human as well. So I had an experience where the particular person could not solve my problem. And then he said that, hey, if you don't give me this five rating, I won't be making the cut for this month. And I would, they would cut my pay. And this is going to be an issue for me.

So then I had to empathize with the employee and say, hey, it's okay. You did not solve my problem, but. If this helps you, but yeah that's how it is.

So there are certain company structures which lead even a human behind a channel to act as a machine because they have to hit those numbers.

I've always arrived at KPIs being the biggest issue for ruining customer experiences. If you set wrong KPIs, it can directly or indirectly impact your customer's experience.

Daniele: It's super interesting, this notion that the way the KPI is structured, the way you measure things,

if we take that to an extreme, what will happen?

If we say, Oh, at the end, we have satisfaction scores that we send. Then what will happen if we put that to an extreme?

What will be the Black Mirror episode of what we're doing?

And then you say, ah, if we put five stars, the guy will at the end say, please give me a five star or I will be fired, and they're like, okay, sure, I'm going to give you a five star. And then again, the system is broken because then people feel this service is really bad for the employees.

So yeah, I'm not so happy to give my money to support people who are not nice with the other humans, and so again, the idea of making sure that satisfaction works well, goes back to Maybe just breaking the experience and so it's quite an interesting question of thinking, how would your KPI go in the wrong direction?

And how can you solve this? I don't have the answer, but I think the question is a very good one. And there's a question that that we should ask ourselves, when we set up this kind of stuff, like thinking, hey, If we want to keep this human and lovely, do we need a KPI? And if yes, how can it be misused and how can we prevent that?

Juneza: One misused to indirectly impact a customer's experience, because nobody is measuring that. Very rarely you get to hear the customer side of the entire conversation. So yeah, I think that could be one way to look at it.

Daniele: Lovely. I'm so happy of the conversation.

What I really enjoy today is that we use the book as a starting point to just think about making the lives of the people we serve a little bit easier.

And it's just a starting point and where we end is usually much more interesting.

So let me switch gears a little bit. What's something that you thought that's something that I don't really agree with.

And I will take a completely different way of seeing that.

The Bad Stuff

Juneza: So there was one topic where I had mixed emotions. It said that always end by proposing the free thing you can propose. So for that specific principle, I had a little bit of a mixed emotion, especially when the example that was provided here, where you spoke about your wife giving two different options when somebody asked for a monetary help, right?

So what I realized is that the use case is a bit limited, because for some of these ideas, it works for a non profit or a charitable institution, but when we think of a specific service, when a customer comes to us for a specific need and you divert that need into saying that, Hey, I won't be able to solve this for you, but I can give you some free goodies, or maybe I can give you a 10 percent discount in your next purchase.

I personally feel the customer would have a bad experience and they would be disappointed. So when they come for a specific need, how do we if we're not able to solve it for the customer, how do we essentially... Help them with it is a lot of the things, a lot of the times companies don't think about it.

It's not a part of their SOP. So for example, off boarding a specific customer later. That entire script is not something that companies actually have. I think an SOP for all of these things might work, but this particular example, I had a mixed emotion. I didn't know how to react.

In a real life format, I'm still struggling with how do you essentially solve for something where there is no clear SOP set. Let's say I got a damaged car, for example. I bought a car and I damaged it and I came back and I said, Hey, you know what? I have this insurance, but can you replace it? And they say, Hey, we don't have it in our company policy.

Instead, what we can do is we can give you a free... Mat for your legs. Would that really be something that I would be happy with? I'm not sure. So that's been something that has made me think on as to how do we respond to a question like this? If somebody comes and asks you for money, will they be happy if you say that, hey, you can come for a lunch service instead?

Daniele: Indeed. We will always come at a moment where we are not the solution, or because of structure of culture of other things, you can't provide the answer or the solution or the help.

And this will obviously happen. And the one thing that I found interesting in this story of my wife was As she's a pastor, and she has the logo of the NGO she's part of, when she's in the street, many people go and think, oh, she helps, so I'm gonna ask her money. And obviously, her budget for helping people is limited.

I found interesting this idea that it's not that I don't want to help, it's that I'm limited with what I can do and showing that is something that is quite interesting. Then obviously how you frame that in a commercial setting is a bit different.

In a commercial setting, maybe there are sentences that you could use or something like, if we take your car example, which is okay, you can't reimburse me that. And then you say, yes, I'm very sorry. Here we're limited with what we can do. Our policy is that we can't do that. What I can do, and I think it won't help you but let me just tell you what I can do.

What I can do is this and this, right? That's where I'm limited today. Is there, will that help in any way? And then it's okay, I'm recognizing that we are in a limited system, but at the same time, I'm trying to show you that. I'm trying to fix the system and find solutions within it.

Juneza: Would it help if, let's say, in your wife's situation, somebody came in for monetary help, right?

There are, let's say, there are 30 people who've come in for monetary help, but she has budget to help two people out of the 30. Would it help if... She gave them a process or system where they could request and they feel that they heard, and then she's tried to provide them with monetary help. But since there was a limitation and only two people could be chosen, the least that she could do is maybe give them access to more people who could support them with this monetary help by inviting them for lunch, right?

So is, does it? Would it help if we had a step prior to providing another set of two solutions, but a process or a system where the customer felt like they were heard, like their issue has been heard, has been tried, but then we could not respond to it because of the limitation, but yet we're trying to help you as much as we can.

So would that structure make a lot more sense? Would, because sometimes people don't feel heard. When you say that, okay, this is what I need, but they say, Hey, you know what? I can't give you this, but I can give you these things. Yeah. I, as a customer, I would be like, but that's not what I want.

You did not. So how do we make someone hurt? We feel like they've been.

Daniele: So what you're suggesting is saying, if someone comes, if you're in a situation where you can't First acknowledging that you understood the request. I'm saying this, from what I understood, this is your request, then showing the limitation.

So making the backstage kind of a bit visible, saying, Hey, this is why at the moment. I can't help you, so just giving a reason, and then this is where we are, where I am at the moment. Now, would you like me to suggest stuff that I can help you with, or that I give you an alternative? And then, you don't even come with...

These are two things that I could do, but You ask the person if she would be willing to hear what you can do for her? Right Which will be a bit longer, but which will be more like,

I heard you, this is what happens behind the scenes. These are stuff that I could do. Would you like me to present them to you? Yes or no?

Juneza: So basically

Helping the customer empathize with you as an employee, because all we tell that we have to empathize with the customer. Sometimes we should let them empathize with us without limitation.

In fact, I'll tell you where I learned this from.

I learned it from a customer support member where I had ordered a lipstick of a specific color. And for some reason it was just not getting delivered and I had called the customer support team and I was talking to this person and he told me can you wait because my system is very slow and it'll take me some time to see why your order has not been placed yet or why it hasn't been delivered.

Once he told me that he's struggling with his system and there is a network issue in his space, I was more willing to wait.

Versus if he had said that can I put you on hold and put me on hold for 15 minutes on a call, I would have got frustrated. Instead, he gave me a reason as to why he needs me to wait.

And once the system worked, he said, hey, you know what, what has happened is that right now, The color that you have chosen is out of production. And I was like, why didn't you guys inform me? He said, there is a disconnect between my backend system and the customer's application due to which this is not reflected, but I can tell you what's happening because I have access to this particular knowledge.

So right now we're out of production. Instead, should I order another lipstick for you? So when he gave me these information, I was much more empathetic towards him instead of putting me on hold or letting me know, Hey, you know what? I can't, we can't deliver you this lipstick instead. Can we get you a, another product?

I would have been very furious and frustrated. And I would have asked him if I wanted this particular product, I would have ordered it myself. So that's where I learned from him that Sometimes we should allow our customers to empathize with us. Because there are back end limitations, there are technological limitations, and everyone's aware of it.

So if we give them a glimpse of it, I'm sure a customer would empathize with us as well.

Daniele: Indeed, and especially...

It turns the relationship from something which is transactional: I want this from you. You want this from me. To: Hey, we are trying to solve the problem together. We are part of the same situation. And: Hey, your computer sucks from time to time. Mine too! And: My boss is crazy and yours too, and we live in the same world!

Juneza: Yeah, because we generally see, like you said, your wife had the logo and the emblem. So we see her as the brand and the company, and we forget to realize that she's also human and she has limitations in part.

She's also another person in that entire system, right? So allowing the customers to see that might be a very interesting way to write the principle. So if there is a emotional quotient that we could add on to the principle which helps a service designer to relook at a service from how a customer could empathize with an employee, that might be a interesting principle for, triggering some thought process for a service designer who's reading it.

Super interesting.

Daniele: I like this idea of saying first: I've heard you, this is what you asked me, and I understood your request.

Second, saying :This is why it's not possible that I help you. Helping the other empathize with the situation and revealing what's happening in the backstage.

And then asking: Do you want me to propose something that is not the solution, but at least is something?

Then if the person says, yes, tell me about the other stick that they could get, or no, just forget about it and let me cancel it and goodbye. Which is okay.

Super interesting.

Here I'm asking myself, how can we make sure that we are doing it in a genuine way, because there are moments where... It's just, hey, just help me, I don't want to understand, and don't try to make me feel that it's super hard to work, it just, it should work, and I can blame you as a customer, and it's okay, it's a, it's part of the deal, and when is it something where you say, hey, no, that's a moment where In fact it's, it is important that the person understands it and I think it will add value in the relationship.

I have an intuition, but before sharing my intuition, I'd love to hear how would you react to that.

Juneza: So how I would react to that is, in order to make something genuine, I think this goes back to our first conversation, it also depends on the value system of the company. I'm thinking from a more commercial space.

So it I personally feel it's the value system of a company that essentially translates into that customer experience, right? So if you're trying to be not genuine, that entire structure would be scripted. And the customer is not interacting you once, they're interacting with you multiple times. And customers are smart.

They can catch it when it's not genuine. So and they know when something is a genuine issue. So I think it's more from how do we build that value system in the company and ensure that the employees are aligned to that value system. So that they're delivering that whatever that experience is in a more genuine manner is where I feel that we should be pushing the companies towards.

Because if the value system of the company is let's hit sales targets, let's push sales, then that's what the employees worry about and that's what their concerns are. And that would also reflect in the way they handle any customer conversations or customer requests. Yeah, I think that's the area where I would try and work towards.

What was your intuition? I'm just curious

Daniele: yeah, super interesting. So we come back to this:

The value system is often what... fucks things up. And working on the value system then has benefits in very practical elements later.

My intuition would be based a bit on what I'm seeing happening in the train service here in Switzerland, where what I see, I don't know if it's the case, but that's my intuition based on the different interactions I have with the guys, checking your tickets, is the company seems to give a bit of a leeway and saying, Hey, this is, these are the rules, And these are the things you can do, but You're smart enough to know when you have to break the rule, and when you want to apply the rule very strictly. And these are the things that you can do, and you can go up to this part.

And which makes it that the interactions are very genuine. Now the guy who controls the ticket is with an old lady, super stressed. She has no ticket because she didn't know how to make the ticket machine work because digital scares her and she's already crying and stuff.

By law, he should fine her. And the guy just says, don't worry, madam. It's all okay. No worries. Here's how we will do it. I will make for you a special ticket for today. You don't have to pay anything. If you make me a promise, madam: next time you buy your ticket in And then you hear the madam say, yes, for sure, I promise. Okay, so we have, you've made a promise now, so this is serious. Okay, so here is your ticket. And it works very well. And on other cases, the guy is no, you didn't buy a ticket. I see the guy has a smartphone, he's playing on it on TikTok, he could have bought something online very simply, like no reason to be more helpful because that wasn't, and that wasn't a mistake.

It was someone who tries to not pay and no, no chance that day there was someone checking the tickets. And I think having this. This recognizing the expertise of the frontline worker who also knows and has the empathy, it's hard for the company because you try to make the best structure and the best processes and everything and you put the best people to do that.

But then you have to trust that people can a bit break the rules on the frontline. Maybe I think that's where I would go is having in the values, we have rules. But we know that there are moments where we need to

Juneza: break them. Giving that flexibility as a part of that structure itself. Yeah, that's very interesting.

And how much flexibility is good for a company? I'm not sure, how do you measure it? Like how, maybe there's a budget? I'm thinking from a very implementation angle. So maybe there is a budget that's allocated towards it, or... Where if things do go wrong, it's not a direct impact for the company as well.

So I'm not sure how would they define, okay, you have so much of leeway, or this is where you could take the decisions based on situations. Because like you said, there could things, there would be situations where things could go wrong as well. And how do companies manage that is, it's a very interesting thought process.

Yeah.

Daniele: There is an example, which can be quite interesting, which is from Tim Ferriss. And the author who previously had a business, maybe, that example of the hundred bucks. He had this rule where he made the calculation: if I give to my customer support stuff and I tell them: you can solve any problem you'd like up to 50 bucks and Measuring what it costs me to, if they bring that up the hierarchy and it comes to me, my time would cost so much.

Then you can do the calculation and say, up to this point, just solve it by yourself and it's okay. And if it needs more money, then, yes, it's valuable that we discuss with another teammate or with your manager or the boss even.

And maybe that's ways you can calculate that.

Juneza: The criticality of an issue can also be easily flagged and marked. I think that's a very interesting structure. Yes. Yeah. Awesome.

Daniele: We both know a lot about service design. It's a deep passion we have and we can't ever put everything we have in our brain in books and stuff. And so my question to you is you've read that chapter, do you have suggestions for people to

Juneza: go further?

Resources to go further

Juneza: I definitely do. So I have all the books with me here.

Book: The Power of Moments

Juneza: So there is one book called The Power of Moments. I'm sure you've read it. Yes. So this is awesome. This step reminds, like your chapter reminded me of this book quite a bit, where they're looking at different elements in a customer's journey to rise that peak.

Of the experience, as well as how do you balance when there is a bad experience or a low expectation, right? So this book is definitely something that I would recommend for this chapter, specifically if somebody is interested to see how more how do we essentially craft experiences with very high peaks.

Like how you've written about surprising a customer, what are the other ways to increase that peak of the experience during that entire journey?

Book: To Sell Is Human

Juneza: Another book that I would recommend because this chapter is a very specific to frontline workers,

hence, there is Daniel H. Pings to sell as human oh, it's a beautiful book. It talks about a lot of sales strategies, but from a customer experience angle. A lot of the times, any person who's at the support space or as a salesperson or as a frontline worker, they are either negotiating, convincing, so that communication bit.

is something that he talks about very heavily. So it's not only for sales teams, it's also for all frontline workers as to how to help a customer see value in the service that they're providing. It's something that I would definitely recommend. Apart from that, these are all non service designer books.

Book: Misbehaving

Juneza: One from research, which is Misbehaving. I'm sure you've read this book as well. It's Richard Thaler's, a lot of again on behavioral economics, which also highlights how do we measure surprise? How do we measure a person's reaction? How do you measure a person, a customer's response to something that we've designed?

Yeah, I would definitely recommend these three books.

Daniele: Awesome. Thank you so much. You're the first person who managed to get a sales book in my reading list, so well done for that.

I'm extremely thankful for all the knowledge that you shared with me today and the community.

Where can people find you? Do you have another thing that you would recommend if people want to get in touch with you?

More about Juneza

Juneza: The best channel to get in touch with me would be LinkedIn.

Apart from that, if anybody is interested to read the book and understand how service experiences are designed in India, they can always get the book from Amazon.

I'm also a speaker. I've been speaking for quite a few conferences. If somebody is interested to see the kind of work that we're doing currently in the agri tech space, they can find most of the topics on YouTube.

So they can just drop in a message in LinkedIn and I'm happy to share it with them.

Closing words

Daniele: Thank you so much for the conversation. It's been super lovely.

Juneza: Yes. I hope you have a great day and looking forward to more conversations with you.

Thanks so much. Bye bye. Bye. Bye. Awesome.