Arun Joseph Martin is the co-founder of the Service Design Book Club, a service design nerd who has worked in big organisations like EY or IBM and a Service Design mentor for many young professionals.

With Arun we talked about the chapter "How To Make People Smile With No Money?".

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• The value of mini sabbaticals and no plan sabbaticals for over-planners like service designers

• Why, for each interaction we add to a service, we should remove one.

• The maturity of Service Design in Canada

• How can we benefit from the learnings from service designers working in other countries?

• Why you shouldn't solve every problem?

• How do we bring diversity into the decision-making process?

• The danger of the saviour syndrome that many service designers have

Books

• Gamestorming

• Liminal Thinking

Communities

• Service Design Book Club

• Service Design Network Canada

Made with AI

This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Daniele: Hey, Arun, such a pleasure to see you again today.

Arun: Hello, Daniele. It's a pleasure meeting you. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

The book launch party

Daniele: It's such a pleasure because you've been part of the book launch party that happened just a few weeks before this call. I know that you are a service design nerd and a fellow book lover. So I'm very interested to know more about all of that with you.

Arun: Thank you, Daniele. It is first of all, I wanted to thank you for inviting me to the launch of the book club.

It was an amazing opportunity to be paired with amazing service design practitioners and leaders. So thank you for the opportunity. And I know we have few things in common, right? Our love of books. We also help the community in whatever way we can grow. And it's also just wanted to call out your amazing work that you're doing for the service design community.

You are one person who puts the backstage front stage, you share all your inner decision making and all your backstage activities so transparent, really appreciate that and thank you once again. Now, so with that, I will get started.

## Meet Arun

Arun: So I'm Arun Joseph, a service designer based in Toronto.

I was a service designer at IBM, its mainframe business organization. In fact, I was the first service designer there. I led three service design pilot projects, helping three product teams create new digital touch points to help their clients quickly discover and learn new product features leading to faster product adoption.

I left IBM in September of 2023. Currently, I'm in a sabbatical, doing some local traveling, learning some new things. And yeah, that's where I am right now.

The value of a sabbatical

Daniele: And this brings me to my first question, because I know we've been talking about that in private which is the value of doing a sabbatical, how did you came to the decision of doing a sabbatical and what's the idea behind

Arun: it? Sure. And so as the pilot projects, when we're nearing to its end, I felt that, okay it's time to take a small break from work. When I say break from work I meant, okay, let's do some sort of local travel, broaden my mind meet new people, learn new things.

And I felt that sabbatical was the best place for me to explore. When I left IBM, I didn't have a structure as to how my sabbatical would look. I explored a few local places in Toronto and in Ontario. I learned a little bit about systems thinking. So all those things just it just came in the moment, so there was no planning per se, and that sabbatical also really helped me to focus on my health.

I was able to reach out to a few other people for coffee chats, so I think it was a combination of a little bit of that freedom from work that would summarize my sabbatical.

Daniele: Super interesting how you know, you go into a sabbatical free, without a master plan, we always have this ideas of holidays we need to check the boxes of Oh, I'm going to see the Eiffel tower.

I'm going to go in this bakery. I'm going to do this and this and this. And like this mindset of we need times where, where we don't plan, where we let life happen and means that it can be just meeting someone can be, Oh, I discovered a passion for system thinking or a passion for gardening.

And and that's okay too. Is this something that is new to you? Is it like a practice that you've grown into? Or is it something that you already had in the past and that you have already practiced in the past?

Arun: I would say this is my second sabbatical in the sense I took my first sabbatical a decade ago.

When I was just transitioning into user research, and that was a little more of a shorter sabbatical, if you will. I was in India during that time. So during that time, I didn't explore too much in terms of travel. I was at home. I was reading, learning. I was connecting with people. Yeah. So I would say This is not new to me, but this is the first time I'm doing it outside India, so it's a little bit of a new experience, and I think, with every year we get influenced by new perspectives and new experiences so this sabbatical has been very special to me in the sense uh, I love traveling and I made sure that, each time when I travel, I come up with new perspectives that really helps me to broaden my thinking.

How to prepare a sabbatical

Daniele: And I'm curious. What's, would you recommend that, to our fellow friends who are service designers, working in this kind of fast paced environment, often service design can be quite intensive, both emotionally, but also in terms of work is this something that you would say, Hey think about it and if yes, if you would recommend it, what's your framework or way of thinking about when is a good time to go in a sabbatical?

Arun: Great question, Daniele. So I would say maybe the first thing the service designers ought to think is, are they in the proper mindset to take a sabbatical, right? If they have their family, if they have other priorities, taking a sabbatical might not be might not be the best way. But what I would suggest is, if they are planning to start, if they would like to do a sabbatical, maybe they can start small maybe on a weekend, can they detach themselves from their work and then travel to a local neighborhood or a new place in the city without depending too much on Google Maps, right?

The value of having no plan moments

Arun: Can they travel without making too much of a plan, get happy on being lost, and then come back with this new feeling that, yes, I can live with uncertainty. And once they feel that they can do it on weekends or long weekends, maybe, can they speak to their manager and say, Hey, every quarter I would like to take three or four days off to be off.

to be in a place which is off the grid. Maybe that will slowly build that confidence and then hopefully at some point of time they feel that, oh, okay, maybe I'm ready for a short adventure.

Daniele: It's inspiring to see how you know, as a generation, we have to learn to live without plans, that's and we need to grow into it, saying, Oh, I'm just going to do a one weekend without a plan, one weekend without a digital companion that can guide me.

It's quite interesting that as people, our job is often, to plan the interactions that happen between humans and organizations. We have a bias towards planning, organizing, but not so much on the living, experiencing, and that in some way, a tiny sabbatical, a break could be just a moment just to be the human who benefits of a service, who enjoys an experience instead of being the analytical or the planner of that experience.

Arun: Yes, definitely. And I would encourage service designers not to design their sabbatical, just enjoy sabbatical.

Daniele: I think that's going to be a key phrase here. That sometimes we should stop to design and just to enjoy. Yes. Yes. And I'm also curious about a bit your journey, because I know

Arun's journey to Service Design

Daniele: So, you have had a very interesting journey up until you discovered service design and you also wrote at length about it.

Could you maybe just give us a few pointers of so I heard there was UX, there was service design, there is a sabbatical now how did all this journey happen?

Arun: Sure. I moved to Canada in 2018. And then I joined IBM as a design researcher. And during my design research, I was really fascinated by the backstage side of things.

The internal processes, tools internal employee experiences, etc. So that gave me the motivation to pursue Service Design and then the pandemic came. I was not really sure how to go about my transition. So luckily I was able to reach out to a few senior people in IBM's design leadership

Daniele: who

Arun: provided the necessary mentoring, to come out of my comfort zone of me being an introvert, just not really good at public speaking or facilitation.

So with their guidance, and I was able to engage in activities that really improved my confidence in public speaking, facilitation, and I also had a discussion with the design executive of the business department and eventually I was able to make the transition to service design at the start of January 2022.

Daniele: So we are both introverts. I love it. It's interesting to see how many of the introverts, are pushing a lot of the community stuff which for me sounds sometimes a bit weird, it's the introverts pushing for the community building for this stuff.

The Service Design Book Club

Daniele: Because there is one great thing that you're part of, which I'd love if we can I get a bit zoomed in, is the Service Design Book Club. And how an introvert, so that's basically the question is, why the fuck would an introvert, be part of something like, creating a service design book club where you have to be with a lot of people and what is this all about?

Arun: Sure. In fact, the motivation for me to start the book club was a little interesting in the sense It was way back in 2018, when I joined IBM as a design researcher, I felt that I wanted to transition to service design, but then I was totally new to service design. So I thought, okay, maybe why can't I organize a service design book club?

At that time, it was known as Service Design, Service Design Toronto Book Club. It was under The mentorship of Linn Vizard, whom you have already interviewed. So Haley Anderson from Toronto and I met and we decided, okay, let's create a in person book club where we invite the author of a service design book to join us remotely.

And then, we rent a space in downtown Toronto and have a few people join us and hopefully there's going to be a lot of sharing of knowledge between the author and the participants. And, hopefully, that would improve my knowledge in service design. So I would say that was .

the premise behind the creation of the book club. Starting from 2018 December all the way till March 2020, we met in person in downtown Toronto, where we had the authors or the guest speakers joining us remotely. Then we took a break, and then in starting from 2021, we decided to pivot and went online and in terms of my introversion, definitely yes.

The first couple of events, I did struggle a little bit. The reason was like, we used to have around 15 to 20 event, 15 to 20 attendees join us. So I was like, okay, maybe, I can introduce I'm the guest speaker, and then probably have someone else take care of the logistics. So luckily for the first event, I had Haley Anderson, my co founder.

And then starting from the second event, I had Elena, an amazing co facilitator, who is a better facilitator than me. And we had other volunteers as well, but Elena used to facilitate that event. And so in that way what happened was I made sure that I was delegating the responsibility to a more qualified person than me doing the actual work of running the book club event, which could, which was a little overwhelming for me, but once we pivoted to online, it was a little more easier.

But even then today, I just introduce a guest speaker and then I let Elena and we have a new co facilitator Alena as well, they do their magic here.

Daniele: Ah, I love it. And. I love it because when I see the author lists, and the books that you cover, it's not just pure service design, which is one thing that I love, it's, I see it, as a book club, which is about books that can help service designers rather than a book club.

of books by service designers for service designers, which could be a bit limited sometimes, and with so also with selections of books that might be a bit more provocative or might add a little bit of a different perspective, that the world doesn't stop in the box of service design.

So that's a very cool community that you're helping to shape there. And I'm extremely thankful. That's, that you're

Arun: doing that. Thank you so much.

Maturity of Service Design in Canada

Daniele: As someone who is both native to Canada and India, a citizen of the world, if we can say it like that. How is your take on the maturity of service design in these different countries?

How do you see also maybe the maturity of service design in also these big organizations, like IBM what's your take on that?

Arun: Sure. So maybe I will start with my take on the maturity of service design in Canada. So this is coming from my perspective.

Different practitioners or different service design leaders could have different thoughts, so with that disclaimer, I would say that service design is slowly gaining traction in Canada in certain provinces like Ontario. Alberta, Vancouver, and the focus of service designers is to improve the experiences of digital touchpoints.

So definitely there's this overlap between the UX and the service design component there, so in in terms of organizations, I think a lot of financial institutions have embedded service design teams. Sometimes they don't go by the titles of service designers. They could come under customer experience or they could come under the innovation or the strategy teams, so that's my, a little bit of that broad take in terms of service design maturity in Canada. I think Vancouver, they have their own service design community. I think in Toronto, I think we have service design leaders like Linn Patrick, Chris, Markus, and Chad. So they've all been members of the Service Design Canada

Network Association, and they have contributed heavily to the Service Design Global Conference, and also, I think they also hosted Service Design Canada Conference as well. So I think the service design is in a very good, I wouldn't say very good space. It's really growing. I think when it comes to adoption of service design in enterprises like IBM,

I think there are a lot of opportunities for the practice to grow. And I think when I was at IBM, my peers were running the Service Design Guild over there. So they were doing a lot of initiatives to showcase the business value of service design. And I'm assuming that they're doing it

good job there. In terms of the take around the maturity of service design in India, frankly, I do not have much connections with service designers in India. Recently, I've connected with a few service designers in Bangalore, such as Juneza, I think, who has been a part of your book chapter tour. So I think compared to Canada, service design is still at a very nascent stage.

The reason being, probably, what does service design mean? That, the answer to that question is probably not very clear. In that Indian context, they still think that service design is still UX centric in some way. I'm hoping that. The practitioners in India would take steps to reframe that.

And hopefully we see an uptick of service design practitioners in India.

Learn from neighboor regions

Daniele: It's a good reminder that you're giving us, which is that, often people say, Oh, in my country as a whole, the maturity is so such and such. And you're saying something extremely important here, which is there is a difference between

regions, there are regions where there is more maturity or growth for services. I know there are regions where there is less, and instead of trying to look at the whole country and saying, okay, Switzerland or Canada or India, it's like that. Maybe just. Boiling it down to a country, to a region, a city, and saying, hey, is there a community in a city?

And maybe being already happy that there is a city with a great community and being part of that. And often, a city is not so far away. In Canada, it's a bit longer. Usually the distance is that what we have in Switzerland, obviously but also this possibility to say, Hey, we have a neighbor there who's very knowledgeable and maybe let's start with that.

And that's already great. Instead of being sad that in the country in general that the level isn't as high as we would hope. I love how you reframe that in I say it's not so much about the country. It's more about the cities, the people, and the regions.

Arun: Yeah, I love your metaphor of countries as neighbors, It is like maybe, someone is in Switzerland or in France, and maybe both the countries could have different levels of service design maturity.

But if you start looking at the entire globe as a interconnected neighborhood, then you can say that, Hey, okay, I have a problem. Maybe I can just reach out to my neighbor who lives in France or in Germany. And then you can just sort out the problem. So yeah, I love that.

I love your use of metaphor there.

Daniele: And it's stuff that many people are doing, I'm seeing that with the Service Design Network Switzerland, where most of the people who joined the events are not from Switzerland. They are from Pakistan, from India, from Canada, from the UK, but still, what's interesting for us Swiss people, is also mostly interesting for them just because at the end of the day, we are all humans, and so most of what defines us is basically the same.

And then there is like a 2 percent of cultural difference which can be very interesting where even if it's not your culture, you're like, Oh, that's interesting and can bring you a bit of a different view. So I'd highly recommend to people to not only join, events and and stuff that is

local or regional or from their country, but, have a look at what's done in Canada, if you're from Switzerland, or what people do in Indonesia, you're going to learn so much more just because you will see a different culture, but also you will just also see that the problems are the same everywhere.

And that's reassuring, and I often get this feeling that. And once we see that the neighbor has the same problem with the grass, our grass starts to become a little more green than what we thought before.

Arun: Totally agree on that. Yeah, the grass is always greener on the side and maybe someone should just take a sabbatical and explore and come back.

Absolutely.

Daniele: Absolutely. There would be so much more, obviously, to explore about you, your life, your passions but we have limited time.

## The good stuff

Daniele: I will jump in the next chapter of our conversation, which is your review of the chapter, how to make people smile with no money from the book Service Design Principles 301 to 400.

And I'd like to ask the first question, which is, was there anything in that chapter that resonated

Arun: with you? Definitely. In fact, I have two stories to share before that, before I get into those to share as two stories. I just wanted to first thank you Daniele for making the content so easy to read and understand, the examples were

so easy to understand, though I've never been to Switzerland, the, the examples that you listed, it was so easy, so thank you so much for creating that very user friendly content to understand. The second, what I really liked was the examples that you listed under each principle, they were just very simple interactions where the focus was either on improving the content or the support experience.

And I felt that even though they were very simple, these interactions we often overlook in our busy life. I just wanted to, thank you for calling that out. That minimal content, even the most minimalistic content and the support interactions really, make a huge presence in our life.

In fact, that has deepened my appreciation for the content touchpoints. In fact, I wanted to share a story. As you're aware, I'm currently in India for my vacation. And I was supposed to return to Toronto in February, but then I decided to, reschedule or I wanted to reschedule my return trip to Toronto to next month.

So I just wanted to, share my experience around how I went about rescheduling my airline ticket and how by reading your principles around content and support touchpoints, I was a little more aware of how could have the airlines made my life more easier. So just to give you the context, I had booked my return to Toronto through a Middle Eastern Airlines.

So I wanted to reschedule, so I went, checked my email and I was looking for this call center number. to reschedule. And I looked my mail, I looked up my email, I looked up my ticket, and I couldn't find the number. So I had to go to the website, and there I had to spend almost one or two minutes to get to my call center number.

And then I dialed up, or I called the customer support number, and I had to wait for a few minutes, and then, I was speaking to a call center person. And the first question the call center person asked me was, Okay, Arun, thank you for validating your information.

Were you not able to do this rescheduling online on the airline's website? I knew that was not possible because I had booked economy class and that category of ticket was something which I couldn't do it online. I responded that I tried doing it online but I was not able to do it. I expected the call center agent to ask me, okay, why was this not possible?

Instead, immediately what the call center agent said was, okay, that's not a problem. I will do it online for you, and you're good to go. For me, this was a clear example of the call center system not talking to the website IT system. There was a little bit of a problem of a disconnection between these two systems.

Finally, the call center person was able to reschedule my ticket. I didn't spend too much time waiting there. Daniele, after reading your book, after reading your book and especially the principles, I realized that I was looking for two information, two pieces of information. One, the support number on my ticket and second, like a message saying that this type of ticket, for this type of ticket, the rescheduling is not possible online and I have to call the support number.

I was wondering like, if those two pieces of information was there in the email, it would have saved my life. I wouldn't say saved my life, it would have made my life a little more easier. So that awareness of how important this content and the support touchpoints are, I think that comes, that came from after reading your principles.

So thank you so much.

Daniele: Yeah, it's we have a sentence in French, which is the devil is in the details. And and I feel your story really shows that, that there are such simple things content wise that can make a huge difference, both for, the front stage, the person experiencing the thing.

And also the backstage, the guy who has to manage the people who are frustrated, because if the information came at the right moment on the right location, then they would not even need, a long call, the call could be shorter or even non existent. And and these small interactions are definitely extremely

Arun: important, yeah.

Simplicity hides complexity

Arun: And Daniele, you did mention about backstage, so I just want to add a couple of thoughts around that. By reading your principles in the book, I have been able to get a deeper appreciation of how this low touch front stage touchpoints mask the complexity of the backstage. I'll give you an example to share this too.

Principle No. 354 in your book, it talks about, Daniele, you being on a London subway and you are seeing a poster. It was more like a workaround poster saying that okay, this is an short workaround to a problem. And I was just thinking that the front stage

touch point is that poster, but if you were to imagine the backstage complexity, imagine how many teams were involved in the creation and the planning of that specific information that went into the poster, or imagine the number of employees that were trained to address questions by the rail commuters if they didn't have an opportunity to look at the poster on that specific day, or how do people, how did that subway or that team measure the success of that poster, so all this what if questions, that emerged for me in the backstage was as a result of just looking in detail the low touch front stage touch point that you had shared in Principle 354. So just wanted to thank you for showing a light around there.

Daniele: My pleasure.

## The 1x10 cost of new interactions

Daniele: And it's interesting that you're talking about, the, the load, of simplicity, something that is very simple in the front stage, what's visible for the person going through an interaction is quite simple, but what happens in the backstage, what employees and partners have to do can be much more complex.

And these days I've been reflecting on that for my own website and service which is the Swiss Innovation Academy. I've noticed one thing where, you know, every time I'm adding something to it, I'm adding a piece of complexity, because not so much for the user, because I think the user often is like, Oh, new content from Daniele, so great, cool, I can find it, at least that's what I think in my head, they will think, because I'm an optimist. But for me, the problem is that then it's a thing to manage, it's an additional touch point that I should not forget, that I have to take into account and I've noticed over the years that when I started this journey, I was like, Oh, let's create

this, and now as slowly I see these things breaking, because, time and Internet dreadlings and stuff, I slowly noticed Oh shit, I created maybe too many of them because now there is a lot of backstage work, to keep all of this working, syncing, and and I think this is really something that's, that I noticed so deeply with a bit age and experience that, the cost of everything that you add in the front stage is twice.

5th time 10 times bigger on the backstage and that when we as service designers say, yeah, we're going to just do a poster, it's yeah, who's going to be trained? Who will print it? Do we have a printer? Legally or do we want to do that because we have a carbon footprint thing that we want to respect?

Sustainability wise what type of paper do we use, there are so many questions, so it's quite interesting to say that, to see that these tiny things, if you see their true complexity, it's quite huge.

Minimalism and Service Design

Arun: Definitely, Daniele. And in fact, I remember reading this somewhere, I think as designers, we like to add things, but then we find it very difficult to subtract things.

And that is where, like that the spirit of minimalism comes in, it's not easy. Even to, subtract or even divide or multiply. I'm just throwing out some phrases here. But the key is we always like to go up to the next level. So we'd like to add new things. And if someone says that you have to take this out, maybe then probably that loss aversion bias kicks in and says, no, we don't want to lose anything.

So let's keep adding.

Daniele: And I see that as a very good critique, to not just service designers in general, but also about that book, because that book could be seen as, a push to add more stuff, Oh, just add this interaction, just add this and this and this and this and this and this and this, which if you would do all the 100 things, I think you will be totally overwhelmed.

You didn't need two sabbaticals or even more. But I think it's like the question, should we really add it, and if we add it, this is always a question that I asked back in the days I worked in a local church where resources were super limited, and, but people always had, an activist mindset.

So there was always something new to do, someone new to help and something new to do. And we always said if we add something, we need to subtract something, at least so that we stay at the same level, and I think that will be a very good criticism for that book, is if you read that book, read it with the mindset of if you add something, if you use something from that book, you should at least remove something, because otherwise you're going to just overwhelm yourself.

The people in the backstage.

Arun: Yes. And in enterprise organizations, they always like to ship new features every quarter. On one side, they have probably they have only limited visibility in terms of how many customers are using the current features. But despite that, they like to create new features and ship it because they want to be seen as a number one or number two in the world or, they want to be better than competitors.

And that's where, as you mentioned, they don't want to, they are not in a position to subtract. It's more about adding. And as you rightly mentioned in the church example, Yes, activities activists, they always want to do something, create that change. But the question is the environment ready for that?

So that's where, as you said, the addition and the subtraction has to be equal. Otherwise, it's going to be imbalance.

Daniele: And may I ask, do you have advice pieces of advice to help service designers to go more in this Minimalist mindset, of being more a subtractor of complexity than an creator of additional stuff.

Arun: Great question. I didn't foresee that question coming, but what I can quickly say is maybe service designers could. approach the experimental mindset. So let's say that, I have added three things, and now I would like to add the fourth thing. So maybe can I run an experiment which says that okay, I'm going to add the fourth thing, but I, might even remove the first or the second thing, and then see how does that system or the product or the experience

plays out. So you run experiments, you run your hypothesis. In that way, you can constantly see that, okay, if I'm adding certain things, if I, what would happen to the system if I were to remove or subtract it. So I think in that way, Service designers are good at prototyping, so it's, it is playing into their core skill, experimentation, prototyping, seeing and learning, and then iterating through that feedback loops.

Daniele: Thanks for that advice, I think that's going to be very useful. So what's an additional critique you would have for that chapter? So we had one first critique, which is about the book in general, which Don't take it as a additionalist mindset, but more as a minimalist mindset, which is there, these are suggestions.

And if you take it, you have a you have a kind of a responsibility to also remove something.

The bad stuff: not all problems are the same

Daniele: What's another critique that you would add to, to improve our understanding of that book.

Arun: Sure. I wouldn't say this is, I wouldn't say this from a critique's perspective. It is more about like just broadening the perspective.

So the the principles 354 to 363, they come under the theme frustration. Now every human being gets frustrated. Now there is a difference between human beings getting frustrated, and there's a difference between human beings getting frustrated and taking action. And most human beings, they are in a state of inertia if the frustration really does not concern them.

If the problem is not really relevant to them, they're like, why should I be bothered? I have other million things to take care of. So perhaps, Can we nudge the reader to be a little more self aware of the problem and whether they can solve that problem either independently or through teams? So just to give an example, maybe let's say someone is facing a problem or they are getting frustrated.

Maybe they can ask this question how important is this problem for me if I solve this problem? And the other question is, what will I lose if I don't solve this problem, right? So it's more like a spectrum, right? So if they say, oh, okay, if I don't stand to gain nothing, then, it's like they are a little more self conscious that, okay, this problem really does not affect them.

And even if they get frustrated, they see that there is no value thinking too much about the problem. Now, assuming that this reader says, okay, this problem is very important for me to solve, the next step they could look at is they could just draw a graph, like an x axis and a y axis, right? On the x axis, they could have, okay, what is the frequency of this occurrence of this problem?

Is it one time, multiple times? And then on the y axis what time, how much time do they need to solve the problem? One minute, five minutes, a week, a year, whatever. Once they plot that dimension, it becomes a little more easier for them to step back and say, Ok, to solve this problem, it may take a year, this is a complex problem, I might require a team.

So there is no use of thinking too much about the problem right now, let me focus on other things, so it's more like a small framework, this is not my framework, so I've just reviewed some blog articles around management consulting and that's how I came to know about it, yeah. So the short summary is helping the reader to gain a little more self awareness of how that problem is impacting them would probably give them that

better direction in terms of whether to really focus on the problem right now or not focus on it and help them continue with their life.

Daniele: It's super inspiring to see that, we need a framework or a way to reflect about which problems do we solve. And that there is, again, in a service design mindset, there is not just the analysis.

It's not just a case of what's the impact for the person being served, but also what's the impact for the person serving. And we have to take into account both aspects. And we, in a perfect world, obviously, all problems will be super easy to solve and won't create much problems. And people will be super happy that they will be solved.

But in reality, it's much different. And, back in the days, we reflected on that with my friend Romain Pitet, who is a storyteller. And he had a kind of an interesting take on that, where he said, there are problems which you should leave into a service, because they make the service.

They create the identity of the service. They give an opportunity to people to meet, and then we had a kind of a whole philosophical question, Yeah, but isn't that kind of like manipulation, leaving problems just so that interaction can happen and stuff. And then we came up with this reflection that if, and that's where the backstage comes in.

If to solve that tiny problem, which isn't creating a huge issue for the person, but needs a five second interaction with a frontline worker to be solved, but will take two years, of engineering to be solved, then it's a smart problem to live in the service, and to make it something else, to create around it an opportunity for interaction, which I found interesting, That not all problems

need to be solved. And we can't solve every problem. And so we can't be strategic about it. Like engineer, plotting on a graph, but also a storyteller who says, which is the problem that creates a great story, a great interaction. And which one should we keep?

These are all very interesting questions to look at problems and frustrations in a more

Arun: analytical way. In fact, Daniele, I should thank you for giving me this new perspective.

Earlier, I was thinking that, okay, problems of all sizes have to be solved, either individually or as a team or as an organization or a department. But now you bring this interesting perspective, which says that, hey, problems are an invitation to be embedded in service. And I thought That is an amazing way of looking at a service designer's role, right?

A service designer's role is a connector with different teams, bringing them together to solve problems of various sizes. So rather than me as a service designer going individual and trying to solve the problem through systems thinking, journey mapping, service blueprinting, can I just bring different teams into that space and say, hey, this problem is eagerly waiting for your knowledge.

And me as a service designer, I just need to take a step back and then maybe just gently guide them. And I'm sure, they can solve the problems. In fact, I just wanted to share that recently I came across this article, I don't remember the link, but I will share it with you, which talks about the five types of problem solving profiles.

The five types of problem solvers

Arun: There are five types of problem solving personas or profiles. The one, the first one is thinker, which means that this person takes his own time for decision making. The second is detective, which means that this person uses data to solve problems. The third is an adventurer, so this type of thinker moves fast and efficient.

The fourth type of thinker is listener, who listens, who is more of a community builder. And the fifth is a visionary, which means that this person really thinks big picture. So the insight that I drew from there is as service designers, maybe we should do a little bit of that self awareness in terms of What is our problem solving profile?

And then reach out to our stakeholders and say, hey, which is your problem solving profile? And then, look at ways to align. So in that way, we get a sense of, okay, this is how our stakeholders solve the problems and how we can help them on their journey.

Diversity in problem solving

Daniele: It makes me think of the, De Bono thinking hats.

It's a bit different, but it's, and I think that's what I like about that. It's like the saying that problem solving also needs different hats, yeah. And that we could add a little bit of diversity also in that way of thinking.

Say, hey, if in a team we have only problem solvers type one. Could we get a bit more type 2, type 3, type 4, and type 5 people sometimes, because it would mean that we would solve problems maybe in a more complete way, or saying, hey, for that type of problem, maybe we need problem solver type 2, and you're a type 1, so we're going to look for someone else.

So that's a very cool way of seeing it.

Definitely, and that's where, diverse teams are more confident or, they solve complex problems more quickly than, teams who have just one type of personality and limited toolkit in solving problems.

Do service designer have a savior syndrome?

Daniele: As a conclusion to that reflection, I would say that there is something in, in that much, what we are exploring here, which is a bit of a call to action or reminder that we're giving to ourselves, which is as service designer, we should not play too much with our savior syndrome, trying to save everybody, fix every problem, and sometimes,

just say, hey is there somebody else who would, be better at solving it? Do we really need to solve it? Is it a good problem in the sense that, it creates a time for reflection for people? Is it a problem that helps people, sometimes we need things that don't go too fast, we need to let people have a bit of friction, and a bit of frustration.

Is it a positive frustration? Yeah, I think that's reminding us to not be in this godlike figure of wanting to fix everything, but also thinking, do we have a right to fix it? Is it right to fix it? And, and what's the cost of fixing it, and what's the impact of fixing it?

I think these are all very deep questions that we can take with us tonight.

Arun: Thank you so much. Daniele, if I can add one more thought, I like your idea of service designers, not being the lone hero to save or solve the problem. In fact, I was just thinking maybe service designers should just walk away from the problem or even take a sabbatical from that problem and then let others solve it.

I know, not everything can be, not every problem needs to be solved by a service designer. At the end of the day, certain problems are meant for certain roles and disciplines. But sometimes as service designers, we feel that, okay, we have the tools and the toolkits, so every problem is a service design problem and only we can solve it.

So thank you for sharing that perspective.

Daniele: There is a great anecdote, do you know how Napoleon handled his mail, his physical mail? It's really funny. In times of war, you would imagine that a general would like to get his mail very fast, to answer very fast. And his rule was something like, so I don't, will not get the number right, but the idea, I can express it back.

So the rule was something like, he would wait a few days. for each letter before opening it and answering it because he knew that people would then solve the most of the problems by themselves and the problems which would remain will be the problems that really need him. That's a kind of an interesting framework.

How do we translate that in business? No idea. But but it's a kind of an interesting provocation from a little guy from France.

Arun: Very cool idea. And I think Napoleon was very smart. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you for

Daniele: sharing. And you shared a lot today. Thank you for that. And you shared a lot with the community.

You always share a lot with the community.

Call to action: join the service design book club

Daniele: I'd like to ask, what's something that the community can do for you?

Arun: Great question, Daniele. As you know that I run a book club. And we have the next online book club. event happening on March 14th, Thursday at 12 p. m. Eastern, so we have Dave Gray who is an amazing person who's written the Gamestorming book he's the author of Liminal Thinking.

We are inviting him to share his thoughts on Liminal Thinking. It would be great if you, if your calendar allows, please join us. We'll open our registrations in the first week. It's free and anyone around the world can join us. And yeah, for the rest of the year, we have four more events lined up. And Daniele, I think you will be joining us for the November 14th event.

Daniele: Absolutely. Go join the Service Design Book Club it's highly recommended.

Closing words

Arun: Thank you Daniele for once again for the opportunity and it was a pleasure

Daniele: talking to you.

Thanks to you. We went deep in stuff where I feel it changes the way I'm thinking. And I'm very thankful to you for helping me think in a more profound way.

Thank you so much.

Arun: Thank you so much, Daniele. It was a pleasure. Have a lovely

Daniele: evening. Bye bye. Bye bye.

Loris Olivier is the Head of Product Design at the EPFL Blue Brain Project, co-founder of lo-ol, a type design studio in Switzerland, a dear friend and my son’s godfather. Yes, we’re close!

With Loris, we talked about the chapter "How To Make The Workplace More Meaningful?".

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• The power of repetition for learning

• The importance of mixing curiosity and focus

• The importance of honest and candid feedback

• The power of a shared challenge in the workplace

• The danger of over-selling purpose and vision in the workplace

Book

• Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

Coding

• Frontend Masters

• React.dev

• Wes Bos

• SuperHi

• Code Academy

Made with AI

This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Daniele: Hey, Loris, such a big pleasure to see you once again, as we see each other quite often.

Loris: Hi Daniele, thank you so much for the invitation and for this pleasure to discuss with you.

Daniele: So this will be a bit of an unhinged episode, I think, of the book tour as we are way too close and too good friends to not go in in weird places, but I'm excited to go in weird places with

Loris: you today.

I will try to surprise you.

Meet Loris

Daniele: So for people who don't know you yet how do you usually present yourself? For example, when you go to a birthday party?

Loris: So first of all, I'm the one guy looking intensively at the exit door for many reasons, but no, I'm a very curious and passionate designer, and I use the word designer in the broad sense of it I practice Interactive Design, more in the product design sense at the EPFL, in the Blue Brain Project.

I'm the head of product design, which is intensively interesting as it is neuroscience, and you all know how complex it can be when you work in that kind of area.

The Importance of Curiosity and Continuous Learning

Loris: And I also assist my wife in The company that we founded together, called lo-ol, is more oriented in type design, but I am in charge of doing interactive design, experimenting with the typefaces that she designs, and also web development, and I'm I would say that curiosity goes beyond design and I'm absolutely passionate about coding.

Some colleagues at Blueprint in Geneva were absolutely lovely and spent a lot of time to explain to me concepts, to correct my code, to do some pair coding and I don't put any boundaries on what I should discover and I should start to understand and learn. I don't know if it fits your question, the answer fits your

Daniele: question.

Absolutely. And I think for many, for the people who don't know you as much as I do, you are I know you will not like the compliments, but I will do them anyways. You're this modern humanist for me, who loves to read poetry, philosophy. Knows everything about the news that I never read and know and then also super good at coding 3D and then also a deep understanding of design, the design world, and all of that.

And great cook. Which is it's too

Loris: slow, but it's great. No, okay, that's what I wanted to ask you. You're complaining a lot about my speed. Yeah, but I agree. No, I, it's a bit of guiltiness, we have, we are talking about the, we read a lot on the social media about the imposter syndrome.

I have some kind of similar things, but I think it's something that should be a change drive, should be a method to change. And sometimes I feel guilty that I'm slacking and not doing anything. And also looking at your life and thinking like How useful am I for other people? That's why I try to get to read a bit more, to try to understand what is the, my, the influence of my actions for other people.

And humanist, I'm a bit skeptical on the word humanist because it has so different meaning, especially when you are French or when you read French literature, it really has another meaning. But yeah, I think that If there is something that should not die when you get older is the curiosity and making yourself always better than what you were the day before.

That's what drives me and I think that I would really encourage everybody to have that kind of attitude.

The Value of Diverse Skills and Interests

Daniele: I think there is a bit of a call to action for the next generation also here, which I read between the lines because I know you a bit, is this aspect of not Just being focused on one craft, being good at your craft and and trying to be better every day, but also to, look at other crafts, be it gardening, be it cooking, be it philosophy, be it writing, reading and that these elements also bring a lot.

And that sometimes we, we are too narrow in one. in one field, and that curiosity should also bring us in other worlds.

Loris: I would tend to agree with what you just said, but some of the people were giving me this feedback that I'm doing too many things at the same time and I completely agree with them and I will never I don't have an argument to oppose them, but I think that you need to have some sort of central spine in which you repeat and learn.

It's more like a slow learning by repeating the same moves and repeating the same process. But for me, that I agree, and I know I need to focus on that more. But the thing is, There is a spine and there is, like in a human body, there is a spine, which needs to absorb and send different information to the whole body, if we go back to a neuroscience kind of topic of area, but there is also like other organs and or other like part of your body.

And I said, that's what I would call curiosity.

The Role of Repetition in Learning and Mastery

Loris: It's you need to have really, like repeat in design and everything you do in life, you become good while repeating and analyzing for what you do while repeating in order to learn. There are some stuff that you don't understand that you're learning because it comes so slowly.

So in some small portions, but also like understanding why you repeat the things. What do you learn from the last 2000 times you did it? And outside of that, you need to have your eyes open and understand how other areas for, in our case, of design can feed and can give you information on what you do repeatedly, and how you can improve, or you can change, or you can even continue exploring, but open a little branch that is quite similar, and I think that's what I would, my definition of them, because I don't want to say you need to explore everything all the time, have 100 percent of your attention on everything.

No, I think that the people will say, You need to focus on a core aspect of your work. I also completely agree and I think it needs to be injected into it. And

Daniele: I totally resonate with this notion of repetition. The value of which, what can sound sometimes like a bit dumb, repetition, just doing the same act again and again.

It's something that I noticed, that The way I tend to learn is through repetition, and I see that a lot of the craft side of our work, for example, sketching, prototyping being better at finding insights and user research and all of that, I feel it's, reading about it is a good thing, just to understand a bit of the theoretical context.

But then, nothing beats just doing it 200 times, 300 times repetition. Because then you suddenly learn without learning, which is a weird thing. And and that's, it's also why, in this book series, why there are so many of these principles. Because it's just basically a repetition for me of.

Looking at the world through a service design lens, like saying, Oh, how can I do that? And I think there we share this same educational thing, but which isn't sexy. And and I'm going to ask you a bit of a provocative question here.

Selling the value of repetition

Daniele: I know you, you're also an educator, you teach both in institutions, but also to people who you mentor.

How do you sell the value of repetition? Because I haven't made great progress at that. Usually what I try to tell people. Oh, you just have to repeat it. It's not working that well.

Loris: In order to answer your question, I think it would be nice to ask this question to someone the age of our grandparent. Also, because I think that injecting this notion that one of the strongest aspects of your skills comes from repetition, also is quite difficult in our time where everything is fast and we have a massive amount of things that comes to us.

If I'm taking the social media, for example, we can scroll if you don't, if you don't put any filters and you don't follow only your topics, you can like scroll for hours and days and weeks. And you develop a sort of notion that It's a train, the train of life, that goes very fast, and you need to participate.

In order to participate, you need to produce very quickly and have very quick feedbacks, whether it's likes, comments, connections with other people. And I think that's quite hard in this context to have a sort of give the value of repetition. And partially, I think, because there is a, because you will have someone in front of you, someone you mentor you will have what do I have to get, what do I will get from repeating?

There is a lot of things that you can say you will get better at this, you will master the skills, but there's also a lot of complex neurological the complex knowledge that comes into, it's not like for example, the design like mastering typography. It's not like there is one day, one moment, one project, one specific part of your layout that when you do it, you understand and you can repeat it without even thinking about it.

There is never this moment. It's something that progressively, and not like a progress bar where 20%, 30%, it's a bit like Minecraft, but floating without gravity, and you have, when you learn and repeat stuff knowledge, movement, skills, understanding with the eyes come progressively in one bowl of knowledge, so it's hard to tell the person and You will be better at this.

You cannot say when, you cannot say in what shape, because of course life will bring lots of different things on the way. For example, mastering typography, you can start off saying, I love designing books and I want to become very good at typography. So someone tells you, you need to repeat layouts, experiments, questions, because it's not only repeating the, that's what I was saying before.

It's not only repeating one, one movement that everybody can do. It's. Repeating, and every time you repeat, like, why did I do that? And questioning, because you need to acknowledge and structure your repetitive movement to be able to become better, because you need to acknowledge that. And I think that this is very hard.

I will be honest with you, I never say you need to repeat and repeat, because I agree with you you can have some people being completely disappointed, like type design, which I try to do a little bit, my wife is absolutely brilliant at that, but working on details, there are a lot of details you can correct, not because you have read in a book in 10 minutes.

That you should not do this. It's the eyes get trained to it, and you can become it. But you cannot never say, okay, in two weeks, two hours, or like two paragraphs, you will become better. And that's, you need to go with someone with this mystery, like somewhere on the way. You will be able to do that, but some people start by doing that, and then, so that it was not actually editorial design that was interesting, but the letters, so you become better in typography, but finally, the letter itself was not so interesting to put into a layout, but it's more like designing the letter, so there is also this this is a journey becoming a good something is a journey, and it's not automatically what you were expecting at the beginning, so it's like, You have to convince more than saying repeat.

It's like you need to, in French we say, s'abandonner, to lose yourself in the process by repeating because the answers are more here than the final destination. That's too long of an answer and maybe unrelated. Sorry.

Daniele: I love it because in a way it feels to me like when people are, explaining the value of meditation, or mindfulness.

It's like the same thing where You're like, I'm not sure you ever will get it, it's, you never arrive at the place where you say, Oh, I'm fully mindful and relaxed and everything. That never happens. And it's just something that you have to do. And suddenly you will realize that you're getting a skill that you can't really describe well.

And I feel there is a lot of, a lot with that, where books, like reading from books or doing a workshop on something to learn is really gratifying because you have input, output, boom, you see it. Repetition. It's much harder, but in some way, also very interesting, I think, from the maybe neurological part, because it doesn't activate the same parts of our brain, maybe, it's it's more slow, it's more into the Yeah.

It, it has less reward also, which is interesting, so it's, it trains also a bit more the grit, the willingness of doing hard things because you don't see the value right now. That's maybe in 10 years, you will see the value of what you did 10 years ago.

Loris: And I, can I just stop you on, I, I.

I disagree with you when you say there is not the reward mechanism. I think there is a very harsh reward because you are always, when you repeat to go into a direction that is set at the beginning. I want to become better at that. And mostly now, like with the social media, again, we have a lot of images and a lot of references which are somehow a point of destination for you.

And actually your reward is terrible because everything until you get rid of it every single reward is very negative because you say, no, it's not good. And the thing is no, it's not good, but in order to be good, I need to continue. So you go back and you do, no, it's not good. And it's like the reward mechanism is very, it's, you don't have any reward.

You are like frustration, waves of frustration. which you need to go over. And some people can be very strong and at the end reach the point they have set up at the beginning. But it's like being able to handle this frustration, but continue and see where it leads you.

Daniele: And so it's also not just a practice of repetition, but also a practice of frustration in some way.

It's it feels like, at least I I know that from from my days in in art school, which was like this this old school way of teaching, which was, you bring something and the only thing that they give you is, this is shit, start over. And which is very harsh, but in some way, very interesting because once you can get to a place where you are in a professional environment, where sadly you have people who also speak that kind of language.

You're already used to it, you're and you're okay. Oh, this is just part of life. The, not the language, but the frustration is part of life and I have to handle it. And repetition is like also a bit of an experience of that frustration of, Oh, I can't yet draw the Mona Lisa.

It's 1 percent better than what I did yesterday. But it's still not there. And I still have a long way to go. And in some way, it's a frustrating learning experience, but maybe one that is less rewarding, but more deep. It's a bit philosophical, but I think that's maybe why we don't sell it so well, but why it's also one of the kind of deepest, interesting ways to learn something.

Repetition. It's it brings me to this idea, which I'd love to do one day. I was thinking, oh I'd love to do a service blueprint course or something like that for people. And I was thinking, oh what would be the way that I would teach it to myself and to myself, if I had to teach it to myself, I would just set up one day to do 30 service blueprints.

But each one has to be completely different, and that will be for me a learning experience where I would say, okay, at the end of the day, I learned how to do a service blueprint of the same journey, of the same service in 30 different ways, which means my vocabulary of how to create a service.

A blueprint of how to map something and how to translate it, how to give value back, is now much richer. But I'm not sure that I can get people motivated, to say, Hey guys, we're going to spend one day just to do repetition and we do it together because so we have a bit of a schedule and a thing.

And it's nicer to be in that struggle together with friends. But it's not that sexy, saying, Oh, the whole point of it at the end of the day, you just have repeated the work of doing service blueprints, for example. But it would be something which could be fun. I'm not sure that we will get people motivated, but maybe we should try it.

Loris: Interesting. It would be interesting. Yes.

About the Bluebrain Project

Daniele: And for people from outside of Switzerland. Can you give a bit of context about what's the EPFL and what's the Bluebrain project where you're working?

Loris: So the EPFL is one of the two technical schools in Switzerland. You have the EPFZ in Zurich in the EPFL.

It's mainly engineer with a broad sense of it. You have architects. You have a mechanical engineer. You have chemistry engineer. You have computer engineer. Amazing people. You have scientists. It's really really. Credible School and the Blueprint project have been started somehow 14 years ago by Henri Marcam who is a professor in neuroscience at the EPFL it's all prepped with different division design.

Thank you. Based on the brain the Blue Brain Project speaks for itself with different people with different specialties, people specialize in neuron morphologies, others in electrical behaviors called neuron electrophysiology you have some people specialize in ion channel and there is a bunch of people Scientists, surrounded by like engineers to build tools, whether it's app or other things the recent the biggest product that will get out of this adventure that will finish in December of this year will be the Open Brain Platform, which is An application, which I worked on and most of my time at blue Brain.

And this will be able to you will have access to brain models. So it's a digital reproduction of a brain with all of its aspect, whether it's a physiological, morphological behavioral, and you will be able to build your own, your own brain models going through different steps. It's quite a complex and it's not something you do in one day and you don't do alone.

Then you can launch simulation if you want to simulate some disease, simulation some kind of signal simulate a different kind of protocol and that will do. Generate like movies, analysis, and it will be able to observe the brain from this point on. It's just a big adventure. There is a lot of absolutely brilliant people working on it.

The product owner itself is I'm really amazed by that kind of people. He's the first, he's the first person I would say he's a real product owner because he has really a knowledge on every aspect of the app he's doing. So in neuroscience, I see him like having a comfortable discussion on the vocabulary, with the knowledge, with scientists.

I see the discussing with back end, front end engineer. And having really ease of discussion and understanding the concepts and the language, coding language, and I have daily discussion with them on design, on user experience, and it's really great. It's a specific part of design, aspect of design, because there was some user research purely before, organizing workshops with scientists, understanding what they want, and pushing them to express something else than, give me this.

Give me that, but like more like my aim is to be able to do this and that and this and give them some like hypothesis, validate with them. So it's really a super nice adventure. I, PFL, they are quite open for that and Yeah, it's a long and intense adventure, but it's quite great.

Service Design without the name

Daniele: I think that's the hidden reason that I'm inviting you. It's not just that we are friends and love to spend time chatting about anything, but because for me, you are the representation of a service design professional, who doesn't use the term service design. Because you have, for me, this understanding, you embody that, understanding that stakeholders matter, that the different people who are in the organization that can provide feedback, that make it work.

are important and that we need to speak to them that the end user is important, that you need to speak to them, but not just the end user, but also the people who have to, build the app, make the app, like the backstage part. And I think from all our discussions, I really feel, that you are one of these guys who is working with What I would call a bit of a service design mindset, like trying to not just serve the end user and having just focused on that, but being open also about, Hey, there are people who have to manage that.

How can we make it easier for them? There are people who have to sell it. How Can we make it easier for them? There are political reasons that we have to consider because all of this is funded by the political sphere. So how can we make it easier for funding to to get here?

And I think through your work you're thinking a lot about these questions at your level. And I think it's really. This attitude that I love, and I'm so excited to hear from you because I think it's a very good, you are a very good example of this idea that you can practice something like service design without having to, the proper title it doesn't matter, and you can steal the mindsets, and apply them to your own job.

And I think that's like a very interesting showcase for that. You're a very interesting showcase of that

Loris: attitude. I would tell you that. And you will hate me for that. But for me, I still, if you would have given me like a task, like you have 30 minutes to write me five lines about what is service design, I would still tell you, I would like to do a cube, like a ruby cube, like an invention, and you should turn it and because it has so many meaning for me, and for me, what you describe in what in me as a service designer, for me, I see that as the If you want to make something real digitally, you have to to embrace all of this cause.

The stakeholder, and I think that Starting by the stakeholders, the best the best service you can give to a stakeholder is like honesty. And giving you the whole spectrum and not being someone saying yes, I'm taking a checklist, a to do list, and I'm implying that because you are not serving in terms of honesty.

If you're honest, you're not honest by Filling a list of requirements because some might not be validated by the people who your stakeholder is projecting. Some might be very dangerous in terms of how much time it takes to develop that without having the knowledge that it's required. It works. You can maintain it on the long term.

We have the staff to maintain it. So for me there is that and there's also All the people who are going to maintain an app, in our case, it's there is a reality, we cannot employ 500 people for this app, we need to understand how we can make it more as valuable as it's envisioned by the vision of The stakeholder, because in my case, it's Mr.

Henri Marcam. How do you continue to build a product that is in line with a strategy, but at the same time is based in the reality? So there are the people who are making it real every day, maintaining it in terms of content, in terms of technical issues and stuff like this. So for me, what you call service design, for me, It's like having a kid, you have a kid, absolutely lovely kid.

The kid is not only feeding him, like having food on a spoon and just this is not, this is the old thing around preparing the food, being sure the food is not too warm, being sure that he wears clothes when he's at the table and you have to bring him at the table or ask him to go at the table. And for me that's the same thing.

The product is not just only doing nice screens, because I'm pretty sure there are a thousand, a billion people better than me. It is like understanding the whole ecosystem around it and how to make it real, breathing and living, how long it needs to breathe. That's the difference with a human being.

Absolutely.

Daniele: And there is a second reason why I'm so excited to speak with you today, which is we've worked together in in one organization and we also work together on other several occasions, more on projects. And one thing that I have noticed. In you, and that I've also noticed in many of our conversations, is that whenever you are in an organization, in a workplace, you're also like trying to design it with the people, I always see you like saying, Oh, there was this process.

People were frustrated about it, but nobody did something about it. So I called the guys and said, Hey, could we change it? And having this conversation, and which is basically, saying, Hey, the workplace is also something that we can try to design. Even if we are not specialists of it, we are using it so we can give feedback.

We can say, maybe if we do that, we can be more more efficient, or it can be a bit more meaningful, or it can be a bit more lovely. And that brings us. to the chapter that you read, which is how to make the workplace more meaningful.

The good stuff

Daniele: And so you read that chapter and the first question I have for you about that chapter is Was there anything that resonated with you in that specific chapter?

Principle: Let everyone do customer support

Loris: I would say both resonates and gave me a a good point is the first article of this chapter with doing some client services, the CEO being able to also be in contact with the client and being client support and being able to hear from the reality and for me, that was.

Really interesting, and I will, I think, I will use that for my current job, like being able to bring the CEO in front of a user, in my case, but I really like this chapter, it was really really interesting. I always, and I think we agree, both agree on it, as soon as it's not dogmatic. And and that's where I see a bit of a problem I love the way you describe it, and with, I know that your book is not a bible where people need to follow word by word, letter by letter, but for me it's really being in contact with the reality, which you call client support, but it's with reality.

I I had an experience with the Blue, blue brain because at the Blue Brain, a lot of developers, they have contact with scientists and they discuss about specific aspect. We gave also the possibility to the current Alpha app to have to be able to give some feedbacks. So a lot of people receive.

Working on the app will receive feedbacks and some of them even have discussion meetings with users. And I think it's absolutely great, and like that, for me, we're doing user experience work on it. When I discuss with my developer friends, they're also friends, yeah, that's a big word. My colleagues, I have someone who is informed about who we are talking about, the user.

And he can even tell me, like URID, you want to change it like this, but I heard that one of the scientists always use his own app in this way. So I don't have people saying, give me the design for me to implement it, but to have a real sense. And I think your article is talking about it very nicely.

For me, there is Something also in between what you described and the implementation of these feedbacks. Because more than me that, but we have all bias, and we also have our own specialty. So receiving from the user a feedback requires also to gather this feedback and being able to discuss with the other person to make this feedback useful and not.

being just like a call center, client support and be like, this client wants to change this other one wants to change that. And then at the end, you have a big monster Frankenstein with all the feedbacks implemented. But I think that there is two things in this piece, this article you talk about, there is like being in contact with the reality.

And also to make sense of your mission at work. And that you're not, and you are talking about it later in show me the impact of my boring admin task. There is also the reconnection with this long time I spend every day. And that we, also that's important, the we, that me and my colleagues, as a team, as a sort of army going to one direction Like making sense to hear someone telling you something constructive, make you think also that what I'm doing can be first better.

And second of all, I created something that it lives in the reality. Which means someone is using it and needs it. And I think I really both these two articles. At some point you speak about showing frustration, worker, impact and meaning of a work and motivate her to a boring task.

Principle: Show me the impact of my boring admin tasks

Loris: I put myself a note, to be honest should we wait the frustration period or the sign? to show them how important their job is. I think that it should be at also already at the hiring phase. You should know why you are hired and actually we should not even present the company for whom you were going to work, but more like the client you're going to serve.

And I think that I was just a bit like an alert mode when you're showing a frustrated worker. So for me, you are the fireman trying to put water on an old building, but I think it would be nice to have what you described in this great article just a step before, but it was really insightful.

Daniele: It's it's inspiring to hear, that Pati, needs a CEO, a manager or whoever, in front of the customer.

Through customer support or anything else like that, isn't just a thing that helps people, understand the reality of the people that you are trying to serve, but also like a very good culture reminder. As a company, that's the people we serve. And that's where we are trying to go.

And and it a bit of a reminder of the purpose, and obviously, every, everything is needed in an organization, we need the accounting guy, we need we need the guy cleaning, we need the person doing the research. We need all of these people and they are all doing different work.

But in the end we all serve that purpose and and that's interesting way to say putting people back and again, in front of the end user, if we can call it like that, is a bit of a good reminder also of the of the purpose of the company.

Not all team members are there for the same reasons

Loris: I think we need also a bit of negativity and pessimism in our discussion.

For me I would also you were like, not everybody has an in the company, but not everybody has the capacity of empathy. And you can also mimic empathy and dehumanize your user by over structuring around personas, proto personas. And I think that, yes, it can help. Understand your mission by knowing who we are serving, but at some point, there are some people who are, it's a mission is a mission.

It's dehumanized. It's that's our, so I would say, yes, it can help you like maybe also as a worker, an employee feels better. Knowing that there is an end point to the game of life like of the work life, but there are also, we need also to be honest by saying some people will not develop this empathy and this is respectable.

It's not a judgment at all. And I'm, you know me, I'm trying to get very far away from any moral standpoint. So for me, they're like, yeah, it helps. I think we we, most of us needs to structure our life in steps process. And I'm not automatically saying doing good because I'm against this wave of design saying the design will change the world.

I think that's a big bullshit. And I think it helps us to live. Because it tells us yes, what you're doing has sense. But for me, there are also some people who are unable, even if they are working in UX, are unable to develop this empathy. And for them, this is just whatever. If they like it.

If they don't like what I do for a product, I don't care. That's the game. And we cannot really do anything about it.

Daniele: And it's a good reminder of something that you said just before, which is any of these Pieces of advice, if we call, can call them like that. These tiny services and principles can be thought of as pieces of advice.

And the piece of advice has always a bit of a limit. Should, you should never take a piece of advice, like as a rule, a perfect rule, a dogma for everything. And I think that's a very good reminder here again, to say, yeah it can help in certain cases. Remember that, there are also people who just love their.

Who loves his Excel spreadsheets and he just loves it. And he doesn't want to see people because he chose that job to, to be with his Excel thing. And we can respect that. And there is people, there are people also who just don't like the craft, don't like the people, but just need the job. And that's also something that we can respect if you're saying, hey, I'm doing this just to feed my kids and the rest doesn't matter.

It just should be so little painful as possible so that I go through the day easy. And that's, I think that's also a bit of a good reminder that obviously it's a piece of advice. Yeah. It can help, but there will be people who will not be able to work with that kind of stuff. And that's fully okay.

Loris: Also over projecting over projecting on the client.

And that also can be a risk. But I think that. We have had with all this, like all this happiness officer, one of the, how do you say, the Mont Blanc of bullshit that we can create, like trying to trigger some instinct or some common cause for the company. Whether to use the user with a lot of empathetic messages and I think that there was a reality, a human being is not an app where you can change the parameters, settings, and then have a completely newly oriented and calibrated person, and there was at some point like, don't even try to find another way to change people, there are some people that want change, and not because they are in the bad place, because again, I'm against an immoral stand, and there is Of course, there is some bad.

For example, if you are working in a company and you are developing an app and you are a UX all of my users are stupid and uneducated and unaware of all the great, and you do that all the time. Yes, that's bad. That's not morally. This is observable. This is objectively. Bad. But other than that, there is like some, in a company if someone is not reacting to the end to the end game of your of your company, the the well being of your user, what can you do?

Okay, it's like maybe other people need to take this portion needed of compassion and do it for them. And that's the game. It's you don't feel like when you are launch inquiry for a new worker for engineering or design. It's not This person will fit this role and you are, you're okay.

It's good. The person will be empathetic. Like you have to be flexible enough to understand that there is also the spontaneous human behaviors that will enter the game.

The danger of overselling the vision at work

Daniele: And what I'm hearing a bit is also this A bit of a critique, which is when we say, Hey, we want to make the workplace more meaningful, sometimes we tend to say, Oh, let's remind people why, what's the vision, what's the, what's, what we want to change in the world, and this kind of stuff, where I think we both agree on that part, which is that A lot of our, a lot of companies, are, try to say, Oh, we are here to save the world, or to make a meaningful impact.

And you say and we are both a bit critical of that kind of stuff where we say, Hey, you're trying to create meaning in something that has meaning, but not that one. Where, yes, it has meaning, but it's much lower on the scale of world change, world changing thing. Where we can just say, Hey, the meaning is just, We're going to help these few people do that task a little bit better.

That's already good. It's sufficient. We don't need to save the world every time. And and I think that's like a danger that I hear from you, which is when trying to make the workplace more meaningful, don't make it snowflakey meaningful which then, goes in a place where where, it's fake when you say, Oh, we're going to save the world.

We're going to do this and say, no, let's be honest. We are not, we're not surgeons, doing heart surgery here, but what we're doing is this. And that's pretty good already.

Loris: I hear you. I hear you. The surgeon comparison for me, the thing is I go to, especially to the point where companies try with the happiness officer, I'll come back on the bullshit to build a common narrative I'm not saying only the religion had these capabilities of structuring communities beliefs, myths, and others. I'm not saying this is only the religion. There have been on the side many other aspects of culture that drove many human beings to together to fight for a common cause.

A lot of this is, and even if you hear like people who are specialized anthropologists, specialists of religion geostrategic politicians, even them, there is never a clear answer on how you structure that. And my problem is that this happiness officer and these slogans that the company have, they are trying to enforce a common, like a common narrative Bye.

Using some recipe like ingredients and saying this will work and I don't have data, but I'm pretty sure I've heard like through interviews, documentary, I've heard, but I only hear negative stance or you have to be a, I don't know how you say in English, but a mythoman. You have to believe a lie, repeating it enough to believe in it without questioning it.

And even if some people who do not practice one of the three monotheistic religions, Islam, Judaism, or Christianity, A lot of people say, oh, it's imaginary people and this is a myth like this. Yeah, but it's more than just, it's not like being a mythomaniac, like believing in a lie. There is, it's way more structured.

And I'm not, I don't want to say only common narrative can come from origin. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that this is cannot be artificially be implemented in the company. Like when you say company culture, yes, but what is it? And you need to question it. The question is like being aware of your client is not enough.

It's what do you get back from this? And you get back not only hearing the feedback, but discussing with others. Because you can all, even a CEO can listen to the feedback. But when you come back and say, Ah, this user is shit. Ah, this user doesn't know anything. Yes, good. You did some client support.

You heard that. Good. What does it mean for you as a human group to hear that?

Daniele: The critique I hear there is a danger to making things meaningful just in words and words aren't enough to create meaning in in the workplace.

The power of a shared challenge

Daniele: So I'm quite curious, in your experience as a worker what are. Elements where you felt, Oh, this is helping me to see the meaning in my work. This is stuff that is helping me to stay motivated. Do you have maybe a story or an example to share?

Loris: I have an answer for me, which why not me? Applicable to other people, but I feel great in a company when I feel we're going to a battle, I will give you an example and it's very geeky, but when Tilden of Rohan arrives on the Pelenor field, When it's being attacked by the orcs, they all align before charging, they all aligned and the king, of course, gives a motivational speech, which in that kind of case might help quite a lot.

But then you see people who are probably going to the, for their death. They are all chanting and I don't know how to say in English, but playing from their horn. And that's the moment I feel sometimes when you are. And I had that with the Bluebrain project where we all, in our speciality, like we know we need to fight otherwise it's going to be a problem and we all fight and we exchange ideas and we try some stuff and for me it's like you show a prototype, I will take the example we have.

We are working still, but we have the core of the subscription model for the app we're doing, which is quite complex because there is some computation time, there are some features that you have access like in any other app. There is a lot of hard data connected to each other, a lot of things that needs to be paid and it's Neuroscience Computing, so it's massive amount of data that you need to, so it's not like you will pay 40 francs for one simulation, it's like more than that, so you need to really be careful and integrate a lot of things, and we were going to present a document of the strategy for the app, and I've looked at it and I was like completely shocked, because It was so complex.

It was not making any sense, and it was complex for the user, complex to maintain this model, and I went to the person in charge, a great, absolutely amazing person. He's a neuroscientist. He's really great. But I said, this is absolutely not understandable by any people. No matter the generation, no matter the gender, no matter the amount of understanding of neuroscience, it's absolutely understandable.

An understandable we don't know how much you will pay at the end of the month. You need so many things. And he started a bit panicking. The product owners was like, I don't get it. And we did like Sprint or we worked together and we said, we need. To succeed, because this is what we need to maintain and justify the app.

And we work all together with the person of the communication, the person of the scientist, the scientific part of our practice. And it was really like, you are fighting for a common cause, and that's what I felt like that motivates me, and I had so much energy at the end of the day, I slept quite late because I was so happy that we could work together, take decisions quickly, and here, because what is nice is that there is not one person saying yes, just because he wants to get back or he or she wants to get some stuff and don't care about the meaning and the importance, but we were really questioning each other, and at the end of the day, you've learned a lot of things.

On your the domain in which you work, on the application, the product you work, about other people, about your knowledge of the product in neuroscience, and for me, that's when you can say at the end of the day, my day.

Daniele: I have images of you being an orc, with medieval stuff on you, but it's a, you created a lot of

Loris: great images. I was scrubbing myself on the other side, on the Hoan side. I hope, I don't know if I would have been there. Maybe I would be like in the middle, like taking some flowers and say, Oh, that's quite nice.

Daniele: I'm not geeky enough to know which is the right side, which is the wrong one. But but one thing that that. that strikes me is that it's less about, the kind of, Oh, we are going there. We're doing this mission. It's important, blah, blah, blah. But it's more about kind of two elements that I see, which is one, which is there is a challenge, it's hard.

It it needs our full energy. It needs our full brain. It needs, it's not easy. And then there is a second part, which is. I'm not doing it alone. I'm doing it with peers. And then there is in French we say, we have this expression, which is we are soldiers in the trenches, and and that makes you friends, and I feel there is like this thing where there is a common struggle, a common challenge, where we worked together, and this creates this feeling of, oh, this is not just a workplace. For you, you feel this, oh, now I'm part of a community, of an army, of something where we have the same goal, we have the same thing. But it's less about the selling of the goal, but more about the struggle that we live together. I think this is a very interesting way to say yes, struggle is good, but can we have it together?

Loris: I would join, I like your definition, I would join with what you said before. Actually, you understand that actually with this struggle, what you call struggle, it's like a car. And the car needs to go ahead. And you understand in that kind of moment that you are a useful part of the car. It's not you're not hitting your ego.

It's not an ego thing. Absolutely not. It's just Only nihilistic people will say, I don't need to be useful in any ways, and that's okay, I can continue living my life. I think without talking about ego, knowing that you are the centerpiece of this car, you have in life to understand that I'm a useful part of this car, this airplane this house.

Like I'm a, not important, but I'm a useful brick in this house. So for me that's why, it's like when you hear, and you, that's when it's going to become weird. When at the end of the struggle, you become someone different. You acquire knowledge, you acquire practice. That's also what, in my case, makes me happy to go to work.

Daniele: And so we explored a lot about the kind of positive aspects of how to make the workplace a more meaningful chapter.

The bad stuff

Daniele: And I'd like to pick your brain on What's one element or more where you would be more critical?

Loris: Actually, without entering the subject of personal tastes and personal preferences of, I like to work with a big chair, a small chair. I like to have lots of space around me and my colleagues, I love to have lots of meetings, not a lot of meetings, a lot of, if you remove that, for me, Again, we're going back to stop trying to reinforce spontaneous behavior in human beings.

I'm sorry I won't kick very hard like on this happiness officer, but like there are things that you can do yes, and you need more space for spontaneous and unexpected. Events. Like you said, I think that I've had in my many it's quite personal, but many colleagues who had miscarriage, and I know that some colleagues got closer to each other because they shared the same story, some of my colleagues, and that's something that you cannot reproduce with anything.

This is like human Behaviour, finding comfort in common struggle, common understanding of one story. I think that's my main my main critics, which leads to something don't hear it as a, like, how can I say that, leftists crazy about fighting capitalism.

The Problem with Trying to Enforce Pleasure at Work

Loris: What I'm going to say is not about that, but I think that there are some jobs that you cannot enforce pleasure.

And there are this myth that There is always a recipe or a potion that you can take to be happy at work. Everybody can be happy, it's just about yourself. There are some jobs it's not possible, there are some personal situations it's not possible. And I agree with many people saying work is important and makes sense to your life, which is why we fight so hard against unemployment wherever we are in the world.

But it doesn't mean that every work makes sense. And lots of other, we have, there was many articles about the new generation only choosing jobs which make sense. But there are jobs where it doesn't make sense or you don't find a sense in your job. And try to reinforce this behavior at work.

I think it's tricky.

Principle: Start with appreciation at the start of a new project

Loris: And another thing I would like to touch your topic, next article, start with appreciation at the start of a project. Lots of great things. The way you describe it, I agree with you.

The importance of honest feedback

Loris: Be construct, be as constructive as you can. And especially when you arrive in a new team and you are supposed to take the position of a lead.

If you are, if the leads coming in the team and leaving are constantly like, saying this is trash, you should know that. Me, I'm coming and I have the truth, I have the right methods. You will have anywhere, employees who says, okay, new person's gonna say I'm leading the revolution and I have the best.

IDs for this project or I will bring you a bright new republic better than anything in the world. If you do that in chain, people will not understand and you will not be able to re inject this sort of common narrative. But it's true acknowledging that there are some, that there is no human being that makes a work totally And entirely wrong, doing bad choice on bad choice and just jumping from one level to the other like this.

So coming and saying this is all shit. I, even the worst company in the worst state never been able to deliver on their product. It doesn't exist. So acknowledging that there are some great things. I think it's also structured like. Saying, I respect you, I respect what you've done, and if I believe in you, I need to believe in what you've done before I was here, and I think it's very good.

I have, I used to work for a good patch company in Germany with absolutely lovely colleagues, some of which became became friends with. They had methods of giving feedbacks, and I was always a bit careful with the way, because there was, like, a sort of lots of layers of Kindness before reaching to the negative feedback and even the negative feedback you needed to package it in some sort of positive things.

And I think they were, they understand much better than me the current generation, the current culture. For me, yes, you cannot be a destructor all the time and being negative, but I think there is also a way to build ourselves together by receiving negative feedback and building a sort of shield. of wiseness, to be able to hear the story and being able to not take it deeply inside you and let it destroy you.

And I find that we sugarcoat a lot of things, or we go to the extent of, and I'm going to take a very sensitive subject, fat shaming. We transform a negative aspect of life, which is taking weight. Nothing to do with the beauty, but taking weight, which medically and biologically is a danger. And we sugarcoat it to be like, first of all, an insult, saying someone is fat, fatphobia or whatever.

And letting, so you cannot even criticize it. Because you automatically have bad intention and you want destruction of the other person, which is not automatically the case. And for me, I feel like we need to find a balance. You will tell me everything in life is about balance, and I agree with you most of the time.

There are some subjects, and I think that's where we Leave the objective area where we can be subjective. But I think that, yes, you need to give also credits for the human. It's like coming to a team and saying, oh, it's shit. Now we're going to do it like this because it's the good way. It's also saying as a human, you have not been able to justify your existence in this company.

So in our society, and then me, the prophet. I'm going to give you all the answers. First of all, you are doing a big bet, because people who hear that and are violently attacked in their ego for most of the people, they will expect from you the right answer. Not the approximated answer, the right answer.

So you put yourself in danger. So I would say you are all always better with with allies in battle than alone fighting the whole army.

The danger of too nice feedback

Daniele: Yeah, it's it's again this notion of balance that I'm hearing, which is yes, if we take this principle of saying, hey, show appreciation when you jump in a new project which has a past, show appreciation for the work that was done, even if the project is not going well show appreciation for what's been doing well, to not take it as seriously.

Yeah. Yeah. Sugarcoat everything in in compliments and hide the shit under the carpet. I think that's the, that's like where I'm hearing you saying also, Hey we can be gentle. But honest, I think we both share this kind of trying to be very honest, but in a way that isn't aggressive which means that we can also say harsh things.

I remember the time, the one time we went we became deep friends in some way was the time where I invited you to lunch after after work to tell you, mate, I'm disappointed. And then I told you like the story that we had, where I said, Hey you promised me something, or at least I felt it was a promise and the promise wasn't kept.

I feel disappointed, blah, blah, blah. And then you could share your context. And we had a very good conversation that I think it's strangely enough, if I would pinpoint one moment where we changed from colleagues to friends, it will be that. Strange conversation, which was deeply honest, but not at all aggressive.

Which was like, this is how I feel, and it's not good. And so give me reasons to understand why I feel like that. Because and I think that's what I'm hearing here is this, how I'm turning it into a question because I don't have the answer. How can we use? And, appreciation, yes, but how can we still stay at the level where we can say stuff, where we can say this doesn't work, this part is not working because the way you read the feedback is biased, and I think we need to be able to say that.

And we need to also to be able to say that. at a certain speed, where we can also expect that in a workplace that we can say stuff without taking 20 minutes of sugarcoating before, but doesn't mean that it has to be aggressive, doesn't mean that it has to be painful, painful, yes, in some ways painful is It will be painful, but it doesn't feel to be like an attack.

I think that's like where I would say the difference. Obviously, we'll feel negative feedback has always felt a bit like an attack, but at least that's

Loris: where we're going to speak. You are using the word silly. And we both know where does it lead. It's feeling is something that is in an emotional context in which we are deeply and triggered and excited and amplified by the media, social media, the more classical ones, like the TV show and other things like this.

The word feeling, the one people, the people we're going to win. With this environment of feeling, are always those who are going to be able to trigger an emotional response. So I'm, when you say attack, I would like to ask you define attack. When you say negative feeling define negative feeling.

And I'm careful with this word, not because I don't want to hurt anybody. I, there, there are some people I will hurt. I will feel bad because I know that objectively I was bad. But there are lots of people who are going to feel bad because they decided. That their ego needs to enter the game instead of their argument and their logic.

And that's where I will never be sorry. Because I'm very, I think I'm a deeply empathetic person, and I feel bad for other people before they feel bad even for themselves when I do something that can hurt. And I will be the first one to apologize and say, I'm really sorry, I shouldn't have said that, or I would do everything to make the person comfortable after my first mistake, but I know that it's also a game now, something that you can sell, it's a marketing argument, your feelings, so that's why when you use the word feeling, I'm very careful because That has been so much weaponized.

Daniele: And I will not go deep in that specific topic. As that's not the topic I'm exploring. And maybe one pointer I can give, which was something that, I would say good friend now back then my manager gave me when I was at good innovation in the UK he come, he came once with the, they say, Oh, I read a great book this weekend.

And it was, I think, Radical Candor which was a book about this idea that, you can share feedback, which is honest, in a way that. Works, which means that, that people then can work on it, make things happen, and that doesn't block the whole situation by people feeling too shitty.

But still, you can say the things that you have to say. And I didn't read that book yet. So I will pass the recommendation of a recommendation. Have you read it

Loris: or have you heard of it? Yes. My manager recommended me to have it is my current manager. It's really lovely.

But it's really like you, like full of good intention, goodwill. And it's also, of course, so tolerant towards the Daily bullshit I'm throwing at him, so yeah, it's a really interesting book. helpful, so

Daniele: maybe the book is helpful. Awesome. So we covered a lot obviously when you're speaking with friends, we tend to cover more and go deeper than with people that you don't know so well.

Is there something Anything else that you had on your mind? I know you've prepped a bit for this call. You've sent me pictures of you highlighting parts of the chapter. So was there something else that, that while you were preparing yourself, you said, Oh, that's one thing that I'd love to to explore in the conversation that we didn't cover yet?

Or did we do a good how can we say that? Did we do a good honor to your preparation?

Loris: First of all, we did, I think I didn't do a good honor to your book because I read your other books and this one looks quite different and there is a different approach of it and I'm very excited to read the whole book.

I have it, of course, but I would like to honor your printing version. But it's, I like how we, I don't have much more to go deeper in this a bit, but I like the book, how you structured it and the action question. The introduction, the core of the, it's really, there are a lot of books built around the fact that you can pick at any point in the book subject and.

And absorb it. And I really like yours. There is a real truth to this concept in it. And there is what you call your action question. You could have a very light, very easy question and close a chapter, an article, a principle, but it's really it. You have created a rollercoaster, so you bring us like a subject, and you think yeah, I covered it, now I'm aware of what Daniele tried to teach me, but there is, then you're like, ah, there is a question, okay, and then to go up, I need to think about it and to develop it, and it's more than just reading this chapter and being like, check, I really like this how you honor this concept.

Daniele: So I'm hearing there is some challenge in the book with the action question, which is a good thing, which is a good thing. Yes, absolutely, yeah. So it's it's I often describe it as a toilet book, in the way that, you can pick it up while you're meditating on the throne and just have a short read.

And but then where maybe the kind of, this idea stops is that with the action question, once you go out of the toilet, you'll be thinking about the concept a bit longer than just. That's your meditation time on the throne. Love it. One more question that I have for you is resources.

Recommended resources

Daniele: Do you have recommendations of things to read, things to watch, things to experience that you would recommend to peers? Do you have anything that you would like to share with the community?

Loris: So I will start with something and I don't want to look, I don't know what you're saying in English but Pedant but has a very nuts As a reasonable person, I tend to try to rebalance and have some sort of rationality in what I'm doing.

I would recommend the book that I think you've all heard about it is Marcus Aurelius Memory and is part of a school of philosopher. That, at least for me, helps me a lot in terms of rethinking what you do in life, your role. In life and how you are and how you, you tend to work to become not better for other people, but better for yourself.

So that's the only one I would recommend that I could honestly recommend. The rest is like Again, be curious. And even if learning a completely new thing looks like a mountain, impossible to, to hike, go for it. You need

to embrace any kind of like platform that offers you new knowledge. And even if some people say, I'm too old. It takes too much time. It's too difficult. I was completely amazed by code and programming, especially in JavaScript or Python. And for me, that's always been like a huge mountain with Forrest, and I say really go for it.

Resources to learn coding

Loris: Go for it. There are so many amazing resources online to learn. For coding, you have Frontend Master, you have React. dev, you have Westbos, you have Superhigh. You have Code Academy and I can tell you that I'm giving you some resources for code, but I'm pretty sure in every field you have such amazing things and really explore, experiment, and broaden your spectrum instead of debating about stupid shit, political shit, where people are all pretending they have the truth.

And they are bringing the good of the world every time they open their mouth beakers, develop an idea of the world through new crafts, discussion. I would recommend, I'm trying to do that as much as I can. I know the algorithm on the different platforms, YouTube YouTube, Twitter, LinkedIn, they are targeting your interests and floating you with the same topics you were looking at all day long.

A recommended approach: curiosity

Loris: But try also to play with these. I'm trying many times to listen to very different opinions than mine. Even opinions that hurts me, even opinions that makes me uncomfortable. And that's one of the best resources because you're also questioning what you think. And when you have something that you disagree completely.

This is a resource that you will take and try to question, have double view, triple view, four four eye view on a subject, on a topic, and try to really understand with your brain and don't ask someone else to think for you. That's my problem with recommending you with a resource, is that you're giving too much power in one single source.

From what I recommend stop having pretension that you will find a resource that will solve all your problems and what you want to do. Thank you. And pretend that this person have the truth in his hands, or her hands. For me it's be curious and be careful with reality, be careful with truth.

Even if in service design you are offering lots of, in your book, of principles, but also this principle tries to question them and having look at them from a different angle, and I'm saying that for all your practice, graphic designer even you talk about surgeon, and I think that all of us have either individually experienced that or have people around us asking different opinions from different doctors.

And why do we do that with doctors and not with the rest? When someone brings you a truth, why is it something that you need to be crazy about and being some sort of ideological warrior? You should step back and be able to say, okay, now I need to hear this opinion and these extremely different opinions.

Not try to find the middle. It doesn't exist. That's bullshit too. But try to become a good human being, you need to try to find something around to define the space in which you think. That's why you look at different, but it's to define the space.

Daniele: One thing that I love about your recommendation, your not recommendation is that you're saying, look for new and different opinions. The opinions that you're not looking for usually, the ones that disturb you, the ones that, that tackle you the bad way, go look at those, learn why they think that way, and in the end you don't have to agree or disagree, but just learning that these different ways is also interesting and I think that's the richness of of The internet is that you can find this kind of stuff pretty easily and therefore use that as a, as something useful.

Get in touch with Loris

Daniele: So you shared a lot today, mate. It's been a pleasure as always. So you, you gave a lot for the, to the community. What can the community do for you?

Loris: I am always more than happy to discuss and have feedbacks on the adventure I share with my wife, which is the lo-ol project. Type Foundry. I'm always more than happy to hear feedbacks, not only about typefaces, because that I will hear all day long, and I would thank everybody, anybody who wants to try typeface my wife is developing, or like ideas of how to sell and how to interact with the phone's products.

Business, development, ideas of function on a website feedback about the type type design industry. My wife is South Korean, so also more than happy to hear people who wants to talk or learn more about Hengel. The type of the South Korean script. I'm open for type design, business, fonts feedbacks, and I exchange with people I'm more than happy because I think there is so much to do so much.

I don't know that we can do so many ideas that could be taken into account, developed and we all have different skills. And I think that working together, we can develop some amazing things. My email is open and I am more than happy to discuss about it. And even if you are looking for coaching for type design, purely type design or typography, I'm more than happy to discuss with you and exchange.

Daniele: And you'll get honest feedback. That's one thing that But I'm sure that people will get and I think you're a very good mentor Yeah, you don't do that, but I think people should should ask you because you are one of these guys who you're a too lovely human to, to give shitty feedback.

And I think that's and you're too smart too, which are two of your biggest problems. But. But interact with Loris share feedback, but also ask for feedback because he is really good at it.

Closing words

Daniele: Hey mate, it's been a pleasure. Great conversation. Great to have seen you, wish you a lovely end of the day and greetings

Loris: to the wife.

Thank you very much. Greetings to all the family. Bye bye. Cheers.

Daniele: Bye bye.

Nurul Ibrahim is the founder and director of Hume, a purpose-centered design consultancy that aims to improve lives through design.

Nurul is also a guest speaker at universities, academic institutes and international conferences.

With Nurul, we talked about the whole book and, in particular, about the idea that good Service Design leads to difficult but important conversations.

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• What’s the state of Service Design in Indonesia?

• Why serving without ever saying “no” is a disservice?

• Why good Service Design leads to difficult but important conversations?

• What’s the next book you should read to help you put more purpose in your work?

Book: Putting Purpose Into Practice: The Economics of Mutuality

Made with AI

This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Introduction

Daniele: Hey, Nurul, such a big pleasure to see

Nurul: you. It's a nice pleasure to see you as well. Thanks for having me, Daniele.

Daniele: Thanks for accepting the invitation. In fact you're one of these people that I'm very glad to get to know. As I told you a bit in the preparation part that we had before, as I'm an introvert, These kind of settings are really good for me to meet new people.

Nurul: Likewise, I'm also a little bit of introverted but I love meeting people from all around the world and.

Also bright minds like yourself and especially who are passionate with service design. So I'm glad to be here.

Meet Nurul

Daniele: So let's jump right into it. I have one first question for you, which is when you go to a birthday party, how do you present yourself usually to the strangers that are in there, knowing that we are both a bit introverts?

How do you handle those situations?

Nurul: I say I'm Nurul. My name is N Brahim. I'm from Indonesia and I'm a designer. I currently run Hume Design consultancy and basically just manage the day-to-day work work with clients and hopefully we do impact through our work.

Awesome.

Service Design in Indonesia

Daniele: And, so I'm quite curious, because you are from a country which I know nothing about. And I'd like to know, how is a bit the design, service design, innovation scene in Indonesia? How does that

Nurul: look like? My evolution in design has been quite an experiment myself. I've been prototyping my life a lot.

I've been a designer for maybe 16 years. I started as a graphic designer. Evolved into art direction. I had experience like in agencies where I wasn't satisfied. I think a lot of designers come from that background, right? And then I was very fascinated with human centered design. I believe as a designer, oh, this is what design should be like.

It should be based on people. It should be serving people, not, a lot of assumptions or a lot of just make, making up things not disrespecting that, that industry just wasn't for me, it doesn't align with my values, and I believe that maybe I should leave so I was, I left to a startup actually here locally, and that's when I started to learn a lot about UX and design research.

But I saw there was a lot, still a huge gap in terms of how to deliver a digital product. And one of my first experiences was we were helping to design a shrimp farming app for shrimp farmers locally here in Indonesia. We worked with like university graduates who are so smart and they were creating the system.

And I was like, Oh, they don't need this app. They don't need this. They don't need this to monitor, the. The, essentially the, if I could bring context, essentially the product was to detect the pH level of the water, so they know when to harvest the shrimps and these people were very seasoned.

They had a lot in terms of how they understood the technology. The nature they understood how to harvest and farm and everything without digital tools. But what was missing and broken was this system, this end to end system, where they weren't getting a lot of support in terms of how they could harvest and have this ready to be marketed to, just the consumers.

The other side was how they could be supported in terms of The quality, making sure the quality of these shrimps. And so I went into you can imagine, like a jungle. I went there and talked to a lot of these farmers. And it was just surprising to me how entrepreneurial they were. They independently learned about like Facebook, creating websites.

And they made those digital platforms on their own because they had nobody to You know, rely on and to make them. So they were in control of their entire ecosystem and I thought that was so fascinating. How could we provide a better system? How can we provide a better filling the gaps from supporting the farmers, the commercial side of that?

And launching into the market, there needs to be a better system. And I then studied in Hyper Island in uk and was inspired by a lot of different systems and services that was available. But I didn't know there was service design. I thought it was really like systems design. So when I came back, I thought.

Oh, this is where I really need to apply and use this practice because it has so much potential in mature markets like in Europe, you can already see that, Governments are already valuing this practice, even I know gov. uk is the most service design oriented unit under the government.

Right now there's a huge design team there, and where we are going right now in Indonesia is very interesting since the last five years. Digitalization has been taking off like by storm, but then like I mentioned systems had, has a lot of issues, there are broken systems, there are systems that independently are created by actors and, the the whole sector or people independently, getting out of the system, making their own.

And so this raised a lot of questions to myself where can I actually support this? And I really believe that service design has this capability of looking at things in that holistic way, where you can guide. People towards that kind of change that we want to see, even though it takes a lot of processes and a lot of steps.

So where we are right now is that service design is not still very much known in a lot of the companies or commercial sector. But there's a growing demand from the civic design, public services area from governments that are looking towards changing certain systems. And they also don't know what that is called.

So where we step in is to introduce and educate people what that is. So there's a lot of educational element to what I do in terms of educating what service design is, getting people on board to service design, and practicing it. And we're very grateful that more and more clients are starting to see this value that we had I think, a few long engagements with previous clients from last year, where they actually came to ask for a service design rehaul But again, like I mentioned, there's so much educational side that needs to be introduced as we are not a market that is as mature as like European market or American market.

So that's where we are at right now.

Daniele: Yeah. It's lovely to see how the kind of public services, are the ones. who have a kind of like a maturity sometimes without the name, like the, where they say, Oh, this is something we need that we need this end to end perspective. We need to have a bit of a more systematic view on these things and that there is their eagerness to to start the conversation there.

Service Design communities in Indonesia

Daniele: So if I was to relocate to Indonesia obviously I'm I'm sure I'm going to love it. But what are communities where someone who is interested in service design or who is a practitioner can find, like minded people?

Are there communities, places that people should know about?

Nurul: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. There was a huge UX community since the 90s that grew and branched out into a lot of different hubs. But we're very, there's not a lot of design, strategic design firms like we do in Hume. So we know each other.

Everyone in the community is like sisters and brothers. So I think since 2016 we started to be part of the ServiceGem chapter here in Indonesia, and slowly the community has started to grow. So there is that community service design practitioners. I think, like I mentioned, you would still see a lot of, Intersection with UX though, so Some practitioners are still maybe owning the title of a UX designer, interaction designer, or even the name strategist because it's still more understood by the industry and more accepted.

But you are, you're starting to see now like service designers as a name. So even at Hume, we took the risk of having service design roles early on in the beginning. And I know it was a little bit crazy. A lot of the clients that we had were asking, what is that? Who does, who, what do they do?

But I thought. Maybe that's a good entry point, for people to learn about this. Why not make that role? But I do benchmark the role and progression to global kind of standards. And this is why I often keep myself updated to people like yourself. to what the industry practitioners are doing or, neighboring countries like Singapore.

That we're also making sure that the career Progresses of people are up to date. I know that's not what you're asking, but I'm, if you're asking about the communities one thing they're also having in their mind is how do they grow in this field? Because they, there's a lot of desire to, to be design service designers right now.

Daniele: Yeah, it's I love how, when. When the maturity, if we can call it like that, the service design maturity, isn't that high, strangely enough, the knits or the closeness between people is much higher, because it's, you're only a few in it that you always feel, I love the way you put it, you feel like brothers and sisters, where you're together in it.

Nobody uses the term or just a few. And therefore we need the help of of people like you, and you and the work that you do at Hume where you say, Hey, let's be a bit provocative. Let's use the new term and let's put it out there. But still, let's also be smart enough and empathic enough for the, for other people to know that.

But we need to do the translation, we need to say, hey, this is, it's like UX, we add this part of it and we love UX, it's a good thing. And we do this tiny part different, but basically it's 99 percent is the same and it's good. But we, the 2 percent make a quite big difference for us and therefore we use that other name.

And I think that's always a good A good way to to put it.

And so I slowly have a bit of an understanding of who you are, but I'm curious to to know more through your critical point of view. And I shared with you the book, Service Design Principles 301 to 400 and I shared it with you in the idea to just share. I've read one chapter with you, but you're so generous that you read the whole book.

And so I'm very excited to hear from you.

The good stuff

Daniele: Was there something in that book that resonated with you?

Nurul: Oh, yeah, definitely. As a designer, I can't just read one chapter, right? I need to learn. I'm learning myself. I need to be, I need to be exposed as much as possible. So I was really excited when you shared this.

But Daniele, I want to congratulate you first. It's amazing that you're putting this together. This is incredible. Congratulations to you, kudos to you that, you actually sort this out, organize this, talk to people and put this together. It's so helpful. So my first impression was that how the entirety of the book and how, why it exists was so helpful.

I immediately wanted to share it to my team. That was my first impression. I really like how thorough it was and how thoughtful that you put together all possible scenarios in dealing with the people, like clients, or maybe people internally, if it's an in house thing or just stakeholders and, just general people who are part of the transformation, while also having some principles that include business that are oriented towards businesses.

And also with experiences. So I'm a huge nerd. I think you, you wrote service design nerds or something like that. I would testify. I'm one of those people too. I, oh I love theories. I love I love theories. I love anchoring solutions based on a solid foundation like principles.

Or strategies based on principles especially if it's tried and tested before, and it's always such a delight to have that moment of sharing to people you know what, There's this point of view and this anchoring principle that we might use or influence clients to do that, too.

I really enjoyed I really enjoyed these principles put together. The other side is that all of them have a illustration to visualize the context. So I'm also a visual person. I really like how those illustrations show. Pain and straightforwardness and sometimes satire as like what it is to explain what it is.

So I like how it's structured. This is what it is. This is a visual that you're trying to express. And there's actually a source. There's you tag the source based on somebody, right? Like an some expert or academic or a quote. And so I really liked how those chapters start with this visualization.

And what I also appreciate was how the titles of each of these chapters are conversational. Like I know you are talking to me and you talked about like friends previously before this, right? I know like you're talking to a fellow. So I like how it's conversational. It doesn't have Feeling sometimes when you would read a book that is academic and in nature or somebody from maybe academia making that, and you can feel a little bit intimidated.

You feel like, oh, did I make a mistake when I thought about something else before? I really like how It's like casual, you talked about the especially with the section on frustration and you introduced the book also, like you can read this in the toilet, if I'm not mistaken. Those are the things that I remember when I went through the book and I remember in the final bit, you invited people to collaborate, right?

You can contribute with your own principles. So I feel like it's. It's very engaging that way. It's I'm a part of something and you're not seeing this as this is the end of, this is the end. It's going to evolve. So I really resonated with how you create the book, like it, it is also like an experience for us

Daniele: as a reader.

One thing that is very dear to me and what you're saying is that you feel This conversational part, it's been interesting because obviously, I'm not a native English speaker, so I'm working with proofreaders and one of the feedback I got was like, Oh, your titles are not like usual book titles, the questions, why you have questions, there should be more statements, and and we had a conversation with the proofreader where I was like, yeah, but. I know it's a bit weird, but that's like why I why do I want it like that? Because I want people to feel that it's a conversation, and the best way to make it feel like a conversation is to ask a question.

Because when you ask a question, I feel that people are already answering the question in their mind, so it's they're already part of the book. I see that with my kid, and he's listening a lot of audiobooks. And in the audiobooks, sometimes, you have the narrator asking a question.

And what's so funny to hear, to see with a kid is that he answers to the book. So for example, in, in the story, there is Oh, and who do you think is the biggest animal on earth? And he's T Rex, and I feel that we have this thing as humans. Whenever we have a question, we want to answer it ourselves too.

And and seeing that. This kind of hypothesis worked with you is like a very great a lovely piece of of feedback. So thanks so much for that. But outside of all the compliments, because the goal for me is obviously not to fish for compliments but also to to hear your perspective and and go further.

I'm quite curious in your experience at Hume and in your professional experience, what's one thing that you would say Is something that helps to make either services more friendly, more humane a tiny thing where you feel, yes that's definitely something that is important, can be from the book, can be from your experience, but something that you say, oh, if I had to take one element and give it back to people, Do that.

That's something that, that works very well.

Principle: The customer is king but you get too choose your king

Nurul: Yeah, I think there's a misguidance sometimes. I think I remember your chapter about customer is a king and you need to choose your king, right? So that one I resonate because We are in doctrine with that kind of principle. Whoever introduced that to us, I don't know who did that.

But I think as long as I live, that was the kind of mindset that we always have had, right? And I also have a background in agencies. All my career, I served. I serve people, I serve clients but then, like how well do the clients know what they actually need? And many times clients don't know what they actually want, no offense to all my own clients.

But I think when we're practicing human centeredness with our approach, whether we're delivering it through a strategic service or AUX, there needs to be a clear understanding of what, what matters and what is important. And and that's not people pleasing sometimes. It's not about, okay I'm engaging with you, you sign a contract and you're paying me so I'm serving you, you need to sometimes put like a bad cop hat and show them the reality of This is, if you're pursuing this, you're going to fail.

You're pursuing this, you might just waste a lot of money. And this ends up with a lot of difficult conversations. And what I think in this practice the confusion around human centeredness is, doesn't mean for me to be a people pleaser and comply towards, okay, advocating one. One user group.

You need to see holistically. You need to be able to see this part and that part like a middle child. Coincidentally, I'm also a middle child. So you need to see all that 360, right? And then that question of what is important? What's important for them? At the end, there is you're, it's not an ego contest.

You need to also understand. What is important? Many times I ask this question, all that facade of the fear and ego comes crumbling down. At the end, it's a fearful client who is very afraid of failing, or sometimes it's a fearful client who wants to make sure that they're investing in the right.

Company, or like a firm like us, and that we are actually guiding them, not just asking for their money. Or, if it's a government, they have a lot at stake. It could be they're, they're maybe under a ministry, but also people, right? The entire community could be up against them, and they could protest against them.

And so there's a lot at stake that we need to manage, right? Even if it's not, we're not going to have that responsibility forever and they will hand it over, we're sharing it with them. So asking what matters was a game changer for me. And so this is why I liked how you also put in areas or principles of the dynamics on how to influence and how to have these conversations.

I think you, you mentioned like a mindset, right? Because we, we need to forge that. We need to build that and we can't just be stagnant in just, okay, one values, one value and one, one mindset. We also as designers need to be like a sponge to build that bridge. That's. That's where I think good good design and good experiences with working working with other people comes into play.

Serving doesn't mean slavery

Daniele: It's it's very inspiring, as you were speaking, came to me this image, you said serving, doesn't mean slavery, it's like a different word, it's not called slave design. It's called service design, which means it's not, we're not doing.

Everything that the master asks, but we are serving the master. And sometimes the master is going in a direction where we say, if this is your strategy, if you told me you want to reach that goal, and you're doing this, based on my experience, I would say be careful. Maybe we could try something else.

Maybe there is other things to try. And I think this is a very important reminder for people just to say, Hey. Service doesn't mean that it is this kind of like master versus slave relationship. You are really into it with the person. It's our duty also to to come up with the nasty question with the difficult feedback

Nurul: absolutely. Yeah. We had a case like this last year where a client there was an education tech company that was growing at rapid speed. And before they know what they had a hundred something people in less than one year, and they don't know how, which area to solve within their company. And so they assumed delivering the service better would have better.

Would support their operations and the entirety of their cost structure. Which is a good point of view. It was true, but once we started to, of course, we do research, right? And talk to everybody inside the company. Once we understood the real problem, we had to invite them to these difficult conversations.

Which is, you've got a lot of people that are not functioning very well because you don't have the right vision or even the vision to, they don't understand what your vision is and it was like a slap in their face. And so we guided them through like a series of these workshops, which we call Purpose Centered Workshops, Purpose Centered Design Workshops.

And to get them aligned to that vision, then you can trickle down everything in terms of that operations. But once we get to the point where, okay, you're going to have to make some really important decisions, which are roles now. And it's either you guys step up or some roles need to be rethought.

And we never asked them to, okay, look, just lay off a bunch of people, but we had to give them that option where you need to make these decisions. These are going to be very difficult decisions. And if you like, we can guide you through to making those decisions. Eventually they had to make those calls because otherwise they'll go bankrupt if they continue the way they were doing.

Those were, are very hard, those are very hard areas where we as facilitators of a transformation where we stand, where our ethics are also, and what we are responsible to needs to be really expressed and carried out in a very mindful manner. So all these conversations and the principles that you designed are really useful because you, you need to move things through, that, the dynamic of hard conversations, whether we like it or not.

Daniele: And so you're making the transition very easy for me. I'd love to hear one of those hard conversations by listening by hearing from you.

The bad

Daniele: What's one thing that you will change in the book or that you feel Daniele, here I need to take my bad cop hat and give you a bit of a more critical feedback.

Nurul: I really, I, like I mentioned, I, I really enjoyed how conversational everything is. I wouldn't say disagree. You asked about like how I disagreed, right? I think like this is coming from your personal experience and your values. So if there's anything I would improve upon with your with your book is if we could make it Maybe not compact, but more I guess direct to what area of focus it is.

For example there's a lot about the frustrations and dynamics, right? And some of the frustrations, and I think, I believe in this section was there's a combination of staff or work related, right? Workplace related also. And. The fact that principle is for the designers to, to work on.

I really love all those principles. It would be great to see if, okay, this whole chapter is how you as a designer could deal with people and those people like clients. These are different frustration scenarios. Let me guide you to my experience on what those are. I think junior designers would love that.

I myself, I still am learning about dynamics. Like I mentioned to him, I'm an introvert also, so it would be really helpful for me to learn about different different ways of dealing with like people and clients or just stakeholders or even like the staffs because sometimes the staffs are also people.

In opposition to what transformation, so if there's a way to structure or categorize all of that into this is about people and dynamics of people, I think it would be a lot more consumable for me as a reader. And then I really like how there's another segment for different principles of like businesses.

I think those are so useful and direct right towards, okay, these are service and business principles that we can experiment on. So that speaks to me as a designer on, okay, if I need where do I go if I need to solve something with a certain thinking or certain hats of thinking, that section is where I would go.

I think it was like. I don't know if it's like clustered that way. I would think it would be a lot enjoyable as an experience.

Daniele: I love your idea. I'm gonna rephrase it in maybe other words to see if I'm getting it right. But, so basically you're saying it would be great to have maybe a sort of index where I can say I'm this type of person, which principles would be interesting for me?

I'm a designer, poof, these are the things that could help you in the relationship with your client and so on. Oh, I'm a business leader, oh, then these stuff would be very interesting for you. Oh, I'm just a staff guy and I can't take the decisions, but I have to live with decisions that have been made for me.

That's the things that that these are the principles that I should read. Oh, I'm someone who's frontline frontline worker, maybe read that kind of stuff. Oh, I'm more in the backstage, read more of this kind of stuff. Am I understanding your feedback in a

Nurul: Yeah we're brainstorming here.

That's lovely. I think you could make like series of these books too. It could be like that specifically for the dynamics, like people dynamics. Would be a place. Okay, that's I dunno, volume one or something and yeah. That's consumable and 15 ways. And compact of dealing with hard conversations with people.

Yeah. That would be where I could, ah, this is my go-to, and then I remember there was about not just business, but I think it was how to make information less overwhelming, right? Yes. So those would be where designers would need support on. Ah, how to make a better, maybe, user, right? A user experience within the service design realm.

But it doesn't necessarily mean they need to deal with people, right? They need to design certain principles better, like case one, I don't know, like a pathway or wayfinding. I don't know, something like that, right? So that way we could have go tos of, ah, this is where I go to as a manager and a junior designer.

This is where I go to for dealing with all my clients. And this is where I go to for when I have to transform like people in, staffs of government. I don't know. This is, it's structured or clustered in that way. That would be. Really lovely if that was the case.

Daniele: Thanks so much for that because I think next year once I will publish the fifth one.

So there will be 500 principles after next year. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to steal your idea and build on upon it, to maybe have playlists, having, you can explore, oh, this is maybe a playlist which maybe is curated by someone else saying, Oh, for these kind of problems, take these principles.

If you're more business mind take these principles. If you're more this and maybe have instead of just looking at through roles, but more playlists, sometimes it can be a role, sometimes it can be a topic, but, and then mixing all the books together, that could be, it could be very lovely.

And then to say, Oh, this is a playlist. With 20 principles on X, Y, something, and then people can go through it with this kind of like less overwhelming, it's just 20, but it's very focused on just one. So thanks so much for that, it's very helpful.

Recommended resource: Purpose Design

Daniele: I know you are a very nerdy person and you have a lot of very interesting things that you're reading.

What's a book or something that you would recommend for people to go further?

Nurul: I really like this book called Putting Purpose into Practice. Has not a lot to do with service design, but more about the way we could think or rethink about businesses even like capitalism. The purpose of having companies, why companies should exist, and the sustainable aspect of it.

of having a business so it's not actually business driven, but it's more about there's key examples in nature there was an example of a chapter like the bee of how, we could organize ourselves for longevity and think about longevity and sustainability, not in a way that rushes, that is rushing but it's, Mindfulness and where businesses really excel is when their core purpose and existence is really impactful to people and changing people.

And I know that's a lot of these words and jargons that we often use. I want to create impact, I want to do this and that. In reality, the practice is really difficult. The practice is not that easy. There's like you, we talked about this, like there's a lot of these mindsets that needs to be established, which is why the role of like us, what we're doing as designers is becoming a lot more challenging because we need to introduce not just, okay, this is how you do things.

And we'll get to that point from A to B. But you're introducing values, you're introducing ways of thinking, and that alone is actually very impactful if you, we can utilize the momentum. So it's quite when I read this, I thought about, oh my, there's a lot that we do that really can impact change in such a granular way.

And so I really like that putting purpose into practice allows me to think about, okay, what is it, what values am I going to instill here if I'm transforming this? Will this company not just, excel in their practice, but also in their revenue and success and everything? What about what they're doing for the society too?

So that kind of thinking holistically to the end, to the world, is something I resonate a lot with through this book.

Daniele: Indeed, purpose is definitely one of the difficult parts of our jobs, because it's not just a challenge for the workplace, but it's also a challenge for people, is this service that I'm paying for, is this serving a bigger purpose than just the service it is?

These are very deep questions and I love that there are resources out there like that book that can help us ask ourselves these difficult questions that go way beyond what we're usually focused on.

I'd like to ask, as a final question:

Get in touch with Nurul

Daniele: You shared a lot today with the community and you're already doing a lot for the community.

But what can the community do for you?

Nurul: Community do for me? I think I would like to just be connected with like minded people who are passionate about this field. But also, using, who wants to use this practice and this skill set. To really see transformation in a very positive way, and I know it's a very hard journey to go through, I just love being connected to people who are very passionate about doing this and wanting to see change.

I think I'd love to just be connected to anybody who's, practicing all around the world. And hopefully through those connections, maybe we could forge collaborations work together. It's an exciting time right now. A lot of global movement, global changes, and I think, the world is getting even smaller.

We need to find ways to like, unite sort of way and, move all the values that are not aligned and differences. And just put our good thinking hats together and work to all these. Social problems that are pressing right now. And I think for me, what'd be really great, I'd be really grateful for is don't stop sharing about service design with love for people to recognize us as our future.

Services too. So I think that's the only thing I would probably probably would like to see. But otherwise I'd love to just be connected.

Daniele: Awesome. So find Nurul on LinkedIn, get in touch with her and I'm sure you're going to learn a lot with these interactions as I'm learning a lot.

I'm learning

Nurul: a lot

Nothing: too from you.

Closing words

Daniele: Thank you so much, Nurul. It's been a big pleasure to meet you. You're doing something very interesting for the service design community at large in Indonesia. It's so great to see that you're pioneering that field. Also with a bit of a provocation bit, by putting the word in front of people and having the hard conversation. It's been very inspiring. And thank

Nurul: you a lot. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Daniel, for inviting me. It's really been inspiring for me too.

Daniele: So I just have to end with wishing you a lovely end of the day.

Nurul: You too.

Nothing: Bye

Yuichi Inobori is an Executive Vice President at Infobahn a digital communication agency operating in Japan.

Yuichi is also a community leader and design evangelist through is practice as a lecturer in several universities and by being the co-chair of the Japanese “Human Centered Design Organization”.

With Yuichi we talked about the chapter “How Can You Make The Workplace Calmer?”

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• How to critique with respect?

• Why psychological safety is important for creativity?

• How visualization can create a new shared language that reduces conflict?

• Why designers can be great translators between the different hierarchies of an organization?

• What’s the state of Service Design in Japan?

• What’s the missing skill many young service designers should practice more for the future?

Book

• Design-Driven Innovation: Changing the Rules of Competition by Radically Innovating What Things Mean by Roberto Verganti

Communities

• Human Centered Design Organization Japan

• Service Design Network Japan Chapter

Made with AI

This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Daniele: Hey, Yuichi, it's such a pleasure to meet you

Yuichi: today. Yeah, nice to meet you, Daniel.

Daniele: I'm very excited to meet you today and to discover. The expertise, the knowledge that you have about service design and all other design things today. Me too. And my first question to you is a very simple one. When you go to a birthday party and you present yourself how do you present yourself?

Yuichi: Yes. My name is Yoichi Inobori. I live in Japan. And Kyoto City. My main background is design, especially UX design and service design and design research as I'm studying innovation on the management science. I got a PhD degree last year. Yes. But my my main interesting is innovation design and organizational culture design.

Yes. I'm trying to evangelize the implement. Everything service design brought in Japan because in Japan in Japan service design is not major field of design. Yes. Yes. I'm trying to do this. Yes. Thank

Daniele: you. Wonderful.

Service Design in Japan

Daniele: And so how do you see I'm very curious because I don't know much about Japan and I'm very interested in how is the Understanding of service design in Japan.

You said it's not a major field. How has it evolved over maybe The last five years, is it like totally unknown? Is it starting to grow? What are the places where maybe people know service design? Can you tell me a little bit more

Yuichi: about that? Yeah. Also in Japan, service design is not a major, but very increasing interest.

Because in Japan is almost industry and almost products, almost services is getting to com complicated, com complex. Yes. So that Japanese traditional business. This person is having a very interesting interest in service design, just in recent years.

Daniele: Okay there is an interest for service design to simplify, maybe, complex products and services.

Is that kind of like the main interest people have for the

Yuichi: field? Yes. Okay. I

Daniele: think so. And, I've been discussing with several people, for example, someone from Dubai, and he said that service design there is something that really started in government.

And that then it's spread out to other parts. Where is service design starting in in Japan? Is it starting in a specific industry or in a specific size of companies? Where do you see it growing at the moment?

Service Design in B2B Industry in Japan

Yuichi: As my as my very opinion, just my opinion, in Japan, it's especially B2B industry. Yes. A B2B industry companies is is having having a very, a great, interesting in cyber because at B2B business and the B2B product on the B2B service is very, complexity and it's necessary to deal with very various actors, a multi user system, and the digital transformation.

Yes, I think so. In Japan, the B2B business is a very good field.

Daniele: Okay. And and did I understand that right? That at the moment it's more B2B and specifically on the more digital aspects of service design where there is a lot of interest. And there is, I think, one part about the presentation of yourself, which you didn't talk yet about, which I'm very interested in.

Role of Human Centered Design Organization in Japan

Daniele: I saw that you are also the co chair of Human Centered Design of the Human Centered Design Organization for Japan. Can you maybe tell us about what that organization does and what you're trying to achieve there?

Yuichi: At Ichiba? Yes. Yes. Yes very difficult question because in Japan it's not yet it's not yet matured about for, about human centered or user centered design but

especially digital service. Digital services tend to focus on human centered design and user centered design, and expand to service design, because digital service industry and digital service companies are It's necessary to think about very complicated interaction for multi user and various stakeholders.

Yes, but but many companies and many industry is not yet mature for a human centered and user centered.

Daniele: So you're really in a pioneer role in, in some way that you're evangelizing about these topics. And and so I'm super thankful that you're doing all of that because I also like that.

From what I've seen also, there is another part that I've seen is that you are a lecturer in at least three universities, if I count well. Yeah.

Challenges and Opportunities in Service Design

Daniele: And and how is it for you to be in this maybe, do you have a tip to share to the community? Because we have many people in this community who are in countries where they say they have the same feeling here where they say, Oh, in my country, service design is not, So well known as maybe in the UK, they say, ah, it's sometimes a bit hard.

What are your maybe encouraging words or tips for people who are in the same situation than you and say, maybe do this and it's going to be okay. Do you have maybe some tips for people who are in the same situation?

Yuichi: It's also very difficult question, but as my opinion.

The Importance of Practice in Design

Yuichi: How to increase opportunity for design practice.

Yes. Excuse me, practicing design. Yes. It, I think studying design method of design framework design process. Yes, but not also important things is practicing, and practice, yes, in the real field, yes the most many students, many design professional.

It's trying to, it's trying to practicing design, yes, a real project, and yes.

Daniele: Okay so basically saying, it's good to know the tools, it's good to know the processes. But practice, is a big aspect and shouldn't be forgotten, especially in places where it's not mature. The example is very important for people to have.

Yeah. Awesome. It's a I asked today very difficult questions, I know, but but but you're very you're very good at answering very difficult questions today, I see.

The Future of Service Design in Japan

Daniele: And and I'm also curious how do you see maybe the future of service design in Japan? You already said a few things about this opportunity to simplify complex services.

Do you see other opportunities, for young service designers? We have A lot of younger people watching these kind of videos and they often say, Oh how can I prepare myself for the future? Again, it's a hard question. But maybe what is your take on that? Knowing that You are also the vice president of Infoban, which is a consultancy, so you also lead people.

And so maybe you have a few ideas on what's the next types of talents or the next type of skills that you're looking for when it comes to practicing service design in Japan.

Yuichi: Yes very hard, but a very good question. Thank you. I think, Such important things, it's maybe thinking critically thinking how to think critically.

Not only logical thinking, but also a strange point of view and critical thinking.

Daniele: Okay, so it's not just about the rational thinking, but also being able to bring different perspectives and and maybe intuition and critics and this kind of stuff and not just okay.

And this is maybe one thing that people should practice a little bit more. Okay.

Daniele: Yeah. That's already very useful advice that we can give to the next generation of of service designers, both in Japan and from all around the world. That's always such very good advice, practice more. be more critical try to bring a different perspective than what's usually offered.

I think these are very good and strong pieces of advice. And and one last thing that I'd like to know a bit more before we start with the book review is can you tell me a little bit more about Infoban? First because the name is really interesting to me as a As someone coming from a country where we speak German, Infoban is for me a very German name.

So maybe can you tell me a bit more about what is Infoban, what you're doing there and and yeah, what's the relationship between Infoban and also the service design world in Japan?

Infobahn and Service Design

Yuichi: Okay. A very good point. Thank you. Infoban is The making word mixture information and Bahn.

Bahn means a highway in German. Yeah, in German language. We tried to making information highway between company and industry to a consumer. Or people and society through service design UX design design practicing design practice and seeking future insight by design, research and UX research.

Yes. Is origin. Origin Industry is a media company. We publish a lot of media, for example, White Earth, Japanese edition, or Gizmod, Japanese edition, or Business Insider, Japanese edition. We have some many some business field. One is a media, the one is a innovation design and one it's a media design.

Yes.

Daniele: So it's a large organization then?

Yuichi: No, a whole group companies, approximately. 200, 200 employees. Yes.

Daniele: Okay. We have. That's all. I like how it's how you're not just focused on one element, but where you can, translate learnings from maybe media to innovation, from innovation to media.

And and that these elements as you said, are a roads between these elements of information and that you

Yuichi: can share these these yes.

Daniele: Awesome. It's it's such a pleasure, I have to say it's a big pleasure today to meet you because I have a dear friend who started last year to work in in Japan and she got a position in leadership in a quite big organization in Japan.

And from time to time, she texts me, Oh, this is so interesting here. This is so interesting. This is so interesting. Yeah. So I'm super happy, to get to meet someone who, who lives in such an interesting country. So thank you so much for joining today.

Daniele: I'd like to now switch a bit and go on the the book review part.

So you received the chapter, how can you make the workplace calmer from the book Service Design Principles 301 to 400. And so you've read that chapter. And the first question I'd like to ask you is, was there something that What resonated with you particularly or that you really liked about that specific chapter?

The good stuff

Yuichi: Yes the chapter I read is very inspiring for me because I think the most important things for creativity is to ensure psychological safety. Yes Yes, I think so. I think so hardly, because the workplace is making karma and safety, psychological safety, the very most important things for design and create values and collaborating and so forth.

Encourage people's creativity. I what important is the psychological safety under confidence self-confidence, self-confidence that one's own self is respected under confident that they are respected, we're respected from other people. The so such such point that they I'm inspiring point about this book in this chapter for me.

Daniele: And May might I ask, so you are leading a co, a company or you are in the leadership of a company. Yeah. So how do you design or ensure this psychological safety, what are things . What are the things that you do so that the workplace can be calmer, can be safe, so that creative people that you work with can be creative?

What are the practical things that you do to make this possible? Again, hard question.

Yuichi: Yes, I think so. But in my opinion, especially in Japan, And Japanese people to all Japanese people so shy and and not, don't, they don't, as many people, they don't, say strong, my our, their opinion to other people. The Japanese Japanese traditional communication style is very highly contextual. Yes. Especially leading between the lines. Yes my, I think especially in Japan, in Japanese in Japan or in Japanese company is a key how to make psychological safety or workplace making karma is that taking care.

We are taking care of each other between all colleagues and employees and the project members. I think so.

Daniele: So it's from what I'm hearing, you're saying That there is a shyness maybe yes. The same that we have sometimes a bit in Switzerland where there is a big respect for the other Yes.

So that you don't say, oh, I didn't like that or you can't be that critical face-to-face because that wouldn't be respectful. And that therefore you need to find other ways to be able to extract that information in a way that is still respectful of the culture. Is that is that correct?

Yes. And how do you get to, because you said before you wish that the younger generation will be a bit more critical. How can we help the young designers to be more critical? Even if they are maybe a bit shy, or when the culture obviously is a culture of respect, which is very good. How can we be critical and respectful, which is a very difficult thing.

Which I know, for example, in Switzerland, one thing that we do is, when we have meetings are a show. There are not real meetings. What happens is that before the meeting, we meet each person personally and we have the deep, the difficult conversation. And then once we join for the meeting, already everybody agrees and we just play the part of us saying, it's all good, very good.

And because we can't disagree with too many people in one room, that wouldn't be respectful. And so we find ways to do it before. So what are your ways? that you found in your culture, maybe in also Infoban culture, to help young designers to be more critical and still feel, psychologically safe and culturally,

How to critique with respect

Yuichi: Okay.

Yes we I and we are colleagues trying to start from good and something, yes, good and, yes maybe sounds co contradictory thing. You criticizing, criticize, critique and criticizing and respect each other. But I don't think two such two things.

There two things is not a contradiction. Cri criticizing a cri critical approach and respect respective approach is a very aligned. We can align the two things, but because because for. It's important seeing this if those things I think are talking honestly and talking carefully each other it's always and usually, yes, because we.

I I I think that very necessary and important things starting from good and yes, how to improve how to improve more better about your opinion and that we, our opinion, yes, I think so.

Daniele: Okay. So bringing praise and then not so much about saying this is not good. Okay.

Okay. But saying, this is how it could be improved, which is a bit of a different way of saying it, which is saying, hey, it's already at the state, which is interesting, but to bring it to the next level of what we expect, these are ideas, questions that you can ask yourself to continue.

Yuichi: So it's first recognizing the good work.

Yes, I would study I was studied philosophy is in my studenthood Yes. As I love I my, my loving and my favorite approach is directive approach. Yes. And

Daniele: so that's basically the way you're giving feedback in a way that feels respectful for the people.

Person also I'm guessing, which is doing the good. The good, the bad, and then being able to make a summary, which makes sense of all of it. Yes. And and so thinking about, about, leaders who come to Japan, who might come. So I'm thinking about my friend. So I'm I'm fishing for advice for my friend so that I can then tell her Hey, watch this episode, it's gonna help you.

The importance of translating the different languages and needs in a company hierarchy

Daniele: If you had to give an advice, to someone, for example, you say, hey, Daniele is moving to Japan next year working in a big organization, what would you tell me as a Tips to say, this is what you should do so that it works well. This is, these are very important things to understand about the culture so that you can create a calmer workplace.

Yuichi: Oh, it's also very.

Daniele: Hard question, I know.

Yuichi: Hard question, difficult question. Yes as my opinion is tips on the important things to understand Japanese, especially traditional. Enterprise company culture is how to think how to think various things for executives and middle manager and younger manager. And Novice, it's how to think something, it's almost Japanese traditional companies employees and executives think same thing thinking same thing, but, a different perspective and a different position. It's different position, different perspective makes yes a difficult make it difficult to understand each other. And yes essential thing what is such. Think and essential point of view is very makes me complicated.

Yes. I think I'm trying to have positively diog dialogue with various players, various people. Yes. Talking about various things. It's, I'm a, yes. I think, designer is a good translator, good interpreter for companies, various people.

Daniele: It's very interesting because what you say as being something very specific to Japan feels to me very specific also to Switzerland, this kind of hierarchy thing, where, maybe executives are, have different needs and perspectives.

than middle managers, than people in the field. And that sometimes the hardest part is to not only understand the different perspectives, but then be able to translate them into the language of each level. And be able to say, okay, now we have someone from field who needs to speak with executive, and we need to teach him.

to speak with numbers and stuff like that because at that level it's numbers and should level maybe field is less numbers but more processes and stories and we have to be able to make this translation and as you say it's very interesting to note that designers have the field research bit, the empathic thing, are in a very good position to be these translators, this lift between the different hierarchies, where they can say, oh, let me bring that information up in a way that is understood.

And then let me, help me bring it back in a way that people can understand it, because the languages are different the needs are different, the expectations are different. And yeah, that's it's very interesting how it's very similar, we're from two very different cultures, the same problems exist on two different places in the world.

Yuichi: Absolutely. Thanks for perfect understanding.

Visual examples to create a new common language

Daniele: And and so in In Infoban, for example, I'm very curious, how do you, are there practical things that you do in Praxis? To make this translation, between executive level and the very bottom level. H how, yeah, how do you make this translation happen?

Are there practical things that you do?

Yuichi: Yes. Yes. I think

mostly important and most effective. Approach is visualizing. Yes. Visualizing. Visualizing not the only visual making a visual, but also defining language, what someone means language, this language, yes.

Their opinion is a language, their language is a language. Language is a very, I think a language, defining language is a very very important visualizing approach. Yes. And making a visual. And structuring information. Yes. Because what visualizing material is a very equal understanding tools for various people.

Yes. We are trying to get this approach.

Daniele: Very interesting because it feels to me as if. You're saying, when we have two different cultures who don't speak exactly the same language, sometimes it's useful to create a third language, which can be the common one, where we then say, and maybe often it's a visual thing, where we say, when we speak about that, we mean this, and we can show it.

In the book, there is this principle, which is called give an example when using fancy terms, where, when, for example, saying, oh we want you to work on a strategy, for example, and let's say what we mean with strategy is, and then you can visualize it and say, this is what we mean.

And this is now we are giving a new meaning to the word, which is like a new language. And we're using visualization to make it clear. And I think this is a very interesting bit to say the visual aspect can be the. The third language, which might be the common language between these different levels and and cultures.

Thanks so much for sharing that. That's yeah. Thank you. It's a very very good advices hard questions. No. Good advices. It's really cool. It's really cool.

Yuichi: It's great. And

Daniele: my pleasure.

The bad stuff

Daniele: You read also you read that chapter and obviously not everything is great in it, and we are gonna do a bit of as you said, the dialectical thinking where we talk now about the good stuff.

Now we are gonna talk about more. The bad stuff, what could be improved, what could be changed. Do you have any thoughts on that?

The importance of conflict

Yuichi: Yes

yes, it's hard to say. Yes good expression. I think I generally agree with what the chapter is saying. On top of that, if I dare to think critically when trying to perform a creative act, sometimes it may be necessary to put a great pressure on oneself to immerse oneself.

The same can be said about collaboration with others. It's important to respect each other and collaborate. AMIC, aary it also important, not be afraid of and promising a conflict. At times, I think a dialectical approach is also important for creative practice and making what making the workplace calmer and keeping yes psychological safety.

Yes, I think so. So

Daniele: if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying having a calm workplace is a good thing, but by going in that direction, you should, we shouldn't keep out. The conflicts part, the pressure, because there is positive pressure, it exists, there is positive conflict in, because it makes people realize there is a problem and we can then solve the problem and therefore calm shouldn't be like calm where everybody just shuts up and does the work, but should be a calm where We can calmly say, I disagree with you, and we can say it in a way that is not aggressive, but in a way where I can be disagreeing in a calm way, and therefore, we should make sure that we agree.

By going into calm, we don't erase the positive pressure. I think that's, my dad was is a psychologist and he told me once this difference between the terror, between stress and a stress. And he said it like that back in the days. He told me there is two types of pressure. There is a positive pressure.

Which makes you learn, which, it's like the muscular pressure, where you need to put some pressure so that the muscle grows. And then there is the pressure that is dangerous, where it can break the muscle. And and you need both, you need the positive pressure, but you need to know when, what is the negative pressure.

And that, I think this is a very good reminder to say. Obviously, we would love to have a calm place, but a calm workplace is not one without conflict, is not one without disagreement is not one without people being sometimes unhappy. It's we need also these emotions to be working.

Absolutely. Did I understand you correctly?

Yuichi: Yes,

Daniele: very correct. I'm very happy that. And and what else would you, do you disagree with, or where, what, where do you see maybe something missing?

The importance of in-person moments for a calmer workplace

Daniele: What else in that chapter or in the book in general, or in the ideas that are in there, do you see as missing or where you would maybe add another? Another idea on top of it.

Yuichi: Ah yeah. Yeah. It's previous I said I generally agree with what chapter is saying, but if additional idea or as a idea to say yes, I generally agree , just as my opinion in recent years for us especially after COVID-19 or most communication on online and hybrid rate interaction. I like hybrid and online communication. But I think, I think a diversity offline and physical communication is very is making important things more and more from now because it's it the way of how the way to making WordPress comma is yes a aligning physical communication or but online.

Online is immersive immersive communication is how to communicate immersive and how to communicate deeply. Yes not only online, but also physical and hybrid. Yes we we have to create ideas. Yes communication tools communication process. In a design process on the design project, I

Daniele: think so.

It's a very interesting perspective because in a way we can say, we spend a lot of money each month on, on tools to help us have digital communication, emails slack this kind of tools, where we invest a lot of money, energy to make these things work. But then we can ask ourselves how much energy do we put and how many tools do we have to make physical interaction better, and then you realize, oh, it's not that much, we don't put as much energy and thoughts into that.

And and it's very Interesting also to see that many of the fully remote companies still say they have at least once a year a physical retreat all together because they say this is important even to us who are totally remote And not losing the focus on saying, yes, we spend a lot of time in digital and we put a lot of energy in that, but could we put at least as much money and energy and thought into also designing the

Yuichi: in-person yeah.

Daniele: Moments. Absolutely. It's a very good, thank you so much.

Recommended resources

Daniele: And, and I know from our common friends that you are a very knowledgeable man and that you have a lot of of additional expertise to share. So I'd like to ask you what are additional resources, can be books, videos, tablets, ideas that you would recommend to people?

To read or explore after reading that book?

Yuichi: Yeah. I have a very loving book, a very lot of loved books and papers. But my my not the best as but favorite books is Robert Berges design Innovation. Belgrandi's book is very very inspiring for me because for example, I designed driven innovation and other books overcrowded with I love it because these books are about ideas and practices that seek to create new values through a critique of existing regimes of meaning or values.

It's so that yes, I think Bergandi's book is very inspiring for thinking critically, and thinking beyond current and existing regimes, it's breaking current regimes, yes. I think so.

Daniele: That's right. That's a very good resource, especially with with the the advice that you gave at the start, with critical thinking and this, and I'm sure the next generation of designers will be very interested to to read more about that.

Is there any other resource that you'd like to recommend or maybe if people are interested if people are living in Japan and say, Oh, the service design thing, that sounds interesting, but where can I meet people? Where can I get in touch with like minded people and maybe grow in my expertise?

Are there recommendations that you

Yuichi: have for that? Yes in Japan in recent years in Japan a design community especially service designers and design researchers community is very grown gradually grown as I, I organizing I organizing as a wonderful board member, human centered design organization.

Japan. There is a human centered design organization in Japan. We call HCD net. AC net. Net is acd net. All very various design and research experts and specialist is gathering and studying design method and researching new design approach. Yes I recommend I highly recommend join and keep in touch with such design community in Japan.

Daniele: Wonderful. So I'll make sure to add a link to that community as well so that people Yes. Who are local can get in touch with you and the rest of the community. Yes. And it's also very interesting to me to. To see that it's not just a community for service design nerds but more, like a general thing where you can find both service designers, UX designers, design strategists, researchers, and that you have this Great mix of people who have the human centered mindsets, but maybe different job titles.

And that's that's also a very very interesting approach to mix these different

Yuichi: types of people. And of course in Japan, there is Japan chapter of service design network is the Yes.

Daniele: Awesome. So for those who want just the service design stuff, we have the service design network.

And for those who dare to be a bit more courageous, maybe the HCD thing can also be like a place where you expand a bit more your knowledge and go a bit beyond. That's a very good, recommendation. And so we had, the, we did the dialectical thinking here where we had the, the positive, the negative.

And may I ask you what will be your sentences? Of this conversation, if you had to do your own synthesis of what we learned together today, what would that be? Ah, so Hard

Yuichi: question. I know. Hard question. Hard question. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Just as my custom and as my style always and usually trying to consider, try to consider multiple perspec through a multiple perspective about one thing.

Yes. Trying to suspend existing meaning existing

uhs. Of value and meaning is Yes. Yes. Trying to break in trying to break. Yes. Current co static frame of think and field. Yeah. I'm training usually .

Daniele: Yeah. It's a, it is a very good synthesis, this idea of saying. It's important that we take different perspectives and and sometimes it's not always easy to just stop our own our our own opinions and stuff to, to be able to hear.

From others. And one thing that you do particularly well that I'd like to compliment you on which I think is a thing that I'm learning from you today also, which is a tiny bit that I'm going to steal from you, which in your answers, you do something which is a very respectful and that I really appreciate this.

You often start with, in my opinion, which is, I think that is very strong. Because as you said, in cultures like mine and maybe yours too where critique is is not often, said out loud. Just being able to say, this is my thought. doesn't mean that I'm right, doesn't mean that everybody means the same, is already a thing that makes it a little bit calmer, where it makes it already a bit a safer place to say, this is my opinion.

It's, and it's just mine in my opinion. And then giving the feedback and I think that's a very gentle way easy way also to, to create this psychological safety and and you're a very good example of that. Congrats on that too. It's

Yuichi: thank you for perfect understanding. Thank you.

## Service Design communities in Japan

Daniele: Awesome. So we talked a lot. Is there anything else that you'd like to share today? Is there something that we forgot to talk about?

Yuichi: Yes, the previous I said in Japan service design is not a major field but I and my design community colleague the friends is trying to very much.

Evangel ing as broadening service design field and interest of service design as if possible and as a design. Design friends from all over the world, please come to Japan and have a dialogue with a Japanese design person and communicate with the Japanese design community.

Yes I, and my colleague, organizing very openly design community events and Talk events and a meetup in Japan. Yes I trying to share information about the events on the LinkedIn. Yes hashtag Service Design and Service Design Japan. If possible please come to Japan and the community come communicate and have a spend time about talking about design.

Daniele: Awesome. So I wouldn't be sure. to check it more often. And I think that's a very good call to action also for people in general to there are very good services and communities around the world. And often these communities have also events which are held. And therefore it's very interesting, even if you're not from Japan, sometimes join an event from Japan, just because it opens your mind because it's a different culture.

And then, as you said, it. It pushes you to break a bit your usual thinking and realize, oh, there are other ways to do it. Or also there are the same problem everywhere, which is also a good thing to know where you say, ah, this is the, I have the same problem. I thought this is a Swiss thing.

And no, it's not a Swiss thing. It's a human thing and it's the same everywhere. And these are, these kind of events that you are organizing are great opportunities, obviously. To get there. Thank you so much. You gave a lot now to people, you gave a lot of knowledge, advice and ideas.

## Get in touch with Yuichi

Daniele: What's something that people can do for you or for Infoban or for your communities?

Yuichi: If someone want to communicate and connect with me or with our ecobank company. Please please contact u by link to and info band c jp. Please connect to my SNS account Facebook or LinkedIn, yes. Please search my name. It's very my name is very unique. My family name is Inobori. Inobori is a very unique name in Japan. Okay. Maybe InnoBody the people have InnoBody as a family name. It's only my family.

Oh, wow.

Daniele: That's, yeah, maybe. Easy to Google. Easy to Google. Yes.

Yuichi: Wonderful.

Closing words

Daniele: Thank you. Thank you so much. Hey. Thank you so much again for your time, for your energy for your kindness. And and also, it's been a very lovely conversation. I appreciate it so much, especially as I throw a lot of hard questions to you and and you handled them very well and you gave a lot of deep and and interesting advice.

So thank you so much. And I wish you all the best for. your work in continuing to evangelize service design around Japan. Thank you so much for all what you do and for the time

Yuichi: you spent today with me. Great thanks for Daniele. Thank you so much. Bye bye. Bye bye.

Deirdre Malone is the founder and Daydreamer in Residence at ABC Daydream a consultancy focused on the guest experience.

Deirdre is also an illustrator and service design practitioner. She uses illustrations to reflect and draw on her experiences to help organizations in the hospitality industry become better hosts of the people they serve.

Get in touch with Deirdre

• Deirdre’s instragram

• Deirdre’s Linkedin Profile

With Deirdre, we talked about how to make the most of the books you read and how observation through drawing can be a profound shared experience.

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• How illustrating what you observe creates relationships

• The value of analogue work to reflect deeper

• Practical exercises to turn reading into something that sticks

• How you can create your own Principles library

• How as a proofreader she redesigned the reading experience of my latest book

• Assouline books

• Joaquin Torres Garcia and his drawing América Invertida

Made with AI

This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Daniele: Hello, Deirdre! It's such a big pleasure to see you again.

Deidre: Hello, Daniel. Greetings from Argentina. Very happy to be part of your international book tour. So thank you for stopping off at least virtually in Buenos Aires, and hopefully at some point in the future, you'll be able to come and visit in person.

Daniele: Absolutely. The one day I will do the book tour physically, I'm going to make sure to stop at your place because I know you are a hospitality expert who can show me the best places to stay. So I'm very excited about that too.

Deidre: Okay. Yes. Looking forward to it.

Daniele: So let's jump right into it.

Meet Deirdre

Daniele: Deirdre, when you go in a.

Birthday party. How do you usually present yourself?

Deidre: I'm a daydreamer and global citizen, I would say. I love to draw. I'm an illustrator. I'm also a family person. I've just been across the Atlantic to visit my family for Christmas. While I'm far away, I like to have time also with my family and the people who are close to me.

Yes. That's my introduction.

Exploring the Concept of ABC in Service Design

Daniele: tHis is the usual, casual presentation, I'm interested also in the more business side, because I know you are, one of those very nerdy service design professionals. And I'd like to know a little bit more about that.

Deidre: Okay. So I began around in 2011. Walking the Camino de Santiago de Compostela, which is a walk starting in France to Santiago de Compostela. And I began to reflect on my professional life, and I realized first I had a daily practice of drawing my surroundings. And when I stopped to draw, I would turn and listen to the wind, and if I turned in the other way, it was silent.

So that's what the wind does, if you're in a windy place. And I realized that we rarely stop to listen to our clients, to really think about the journeys people are going through. So I began with ABC, which is andar, to roam, buscar, to search, and compartir, to share. So this became a the cycle of my how I work.

So andar can be to roam around a business, let's say buscar to look for new ideas for innovation, and compartir is to share those findings. So it's a little bit like the service design, other service design maybe diagrams that you've seen, like the double diamond, where You come up with a bunch of ideas and then you bring them together and then you can innovate from there.

My process is very simple, ABC, and then later I added the term daydream. First, because I am a daydreamer and whilst in a business everybody who's involved in a daily basis is really inside. I like to look in from an outside lens and particularly a user's lens and daydream is the vision that then turns into action.

And just to complete the circle I've adopted a phrase many years ago, which is a Japanese phrase also used by Richard Branson, which just happens to be, I don't remember when I first read it, but it goes like this vision without action is a daydream, action without vision. is a nightmare. So then I come to the kind of my own Richter scale of the customer journey and Daydream being the best case scenario, Nightmare being the worst case scenario.

So that's. Everything in a nutshell.

Daniele: I love it. There is, there's one quality I especially like in, in how you frame that, the words daydream, roam, which to me have this more intuitive quality than How a lot of service design work, is sold today, which is very scientific, academic, numbers driven, and like the emotion is sometimes a bit forgotten, and and one thing that I really like.

In our interactions often is you bring back, the intuition and you often speak of, Oh, this made me feel like that. And instead of using, phrases like I think we should do that because I analyzed, which is a very different way of interacting. May I ask how did this happen?

Where you always, I'm very much in touch with this kind of intuitive side in your work, or is this something that changed maybe through this this journey that you did through the Compostelle way?

Deidre: I've always been interested in design As a mechanical engineer, my favorite subject was design, but I realized with many hours overnight in the drawing that I am much more better at refining existing scenarios and designing something from zero.

If I go a couple of years on from that I distinctly remember walking to Kodak headquarters in Tokyo. I was an English teacher at the time and at the time everyone was buying Walkmans. Showing my age a little bit. And I realized that when I bought the new Walkman, it didn't have some of the design features of the old one.

And actually this goes back to one of the design principles of your book, which is ask the person who's been around the longest. So the kind of museum staff of an organization. So sometimes I felt that innovation people are so focused on creating something new that they, Don't see the gems of existing products.

I've always been interested in the finer details of things, and then I have always drawn as well. Drawing helps me, if I see, if I'm observing a situation, it helps me distill things down to

## The Role of Drawing in Capturing Experiences

Daniele: And once I met you said something quite strong about drawing. You had this expression: Drawing from experience. Can you maybe share a little bit of that idea that you have, which is that drawing is a very good medium. to speak about the experiences, to give back observations that are made, especially in the hospitality business, which is also one of your

Deidre: expertise.

Okay, yes.

The Power of Illustration in Conveying Experiences

Deidre: I'm going to go back a few years to Leonardo da Vinci, who said that, I can't quite remember the phrase, but it was something like, the artist sees. It's way beyond what others only catch a glimpse of. That's, to me I love that phrase because, many times when I draw I think, oh, I can't capture this detail, but once you get into it, it's not that difficult.

The Importance of Tangible Elements in Experiences

Deidre: But in, you asked me about drawing related to hospitality, in 2021, I created a trademark which is Daydreamer in Residence, because when we're in a situation, for example, in a in a hotel, and we go through that whole process of booking and then checking in and etc. There are many organizations that evaluate the customer journey through a very organized process, so basically a spreadsheet where you are trained to fill in Maybe 300 observations and take many photographs and that's very good for compliance and other things, but it sometimes it misses the more holistic or intangible elements of your experience and how you feel.

Going from the intangible to the tangible, I find when I draw something, it just really brings out the beauty of the experience. It can also bring out some little nightmares, but I prefer in this conversation to talk about the positive things. And I find that they last a lot longer.

The Impact of Drawing on Memory and Empathy

Deidre: yOu know that we we worked together, you helped me bring out a series of 60 illustrations related to hospitality, and some of them are 20 years old, but when I look at them I'm taken straight back to the moment in time.

Daniele: It reminds me how You know when you read the book, like Harry Potter, this also shows my age to the audience when you read the book and then you see the movie, so much gets lost, in the technical aspect of it's a movie, and I feel there is the same with drawing and photography where through drawing, you can capture so much more.

And at the same time. You help the person who is watching the drawing to really empathize with the situation because she has to fill some blanks, where with a photograph, everything is given. Or at least we think so. And so there is much less empathy. And therefore it's like a less stronger device to help people see how was the experience.

And this is something that is. That I find deeply inspiring in your work because, your drawings for me, they have this strong quality of helping people not just, being in this doctor mode where we want to see what works, what doesn't work, symptoms and stuff, but instead go also into the, nurse mode where You know you are really with the person, and you're like, oh, we struggle together.

And, oh, I feel you, and which is a very different way of working with how services work and how they should be improved.

The Role of Intuition in Service Design

Daniele: I think, obviously both are really good, both ways they're very technical, they're more intuitive, but if we can balance both that's where it's very magic.

And I think we need people like you, who bring this. Counterbalance who say, hey let's be more maybe on the intuitive side, on the emotional side, and let's reveal that

Deidre: part. I would like to pick up on your comment about Harry Potter, because I had the privilege of working briefly with a Brazilian company that works very closely with Disney.

And so I I had a two week immersion in Disney and Universal Studios and Harry Potter and, So you have the book, you have the film, and then you have the immersive experience where you are walking through, Harry Potter's land or whatever. And but when you think about it, all of that goes back to a drawing.

So Walt Disney says it all began with a mouse, which he drew. And Disney for me is a wonderful example of illustration. So Disney I think they trademarked the term Imagineer. So their Disney Imagineers are sent around the world and I can't remember his name, but one of their chief Imagineers went to Africa and now in the animal kingdom there's a It's one of the higher end restaurants of Disney and I went there with a group and maybe I was the only one fascinated by everything around me, but they had cabinets with his drawings and his sketchbooks and I have been to Africa, to various countries in Africa, but I do remember very clearly a trip to Mombasa and when I came out of the restaurant and I walked through what he'd created I felt like I was back there.

Yeah, so that's why I've brought up Disney as the, as an example, because it's been a very strong influence for me, especially since that work in 2019, when I really understood where it all came from.

Daniele: It makes me remember, how important these drawings can be, cavemen, they did their drawings, they couldn't write, but they could, with a bit of blood and maybe some foods and stuff and ink, they could draw their experience.

And today we still look at that as not something, not only technical, but really, we need to analyze the culture, the myth that they had, and.

Reflecting on Personal Journey in Service Design

Daniele: And why not sometimes just go back to the roots of our communication as tribes, and say, Hey, this is a medium that we have for so long, that there's maybe so much ingrained in ourselves and maybe we can use it very strongly.

And as the caveman, if it's shitty, it's okay. That's, I think also You have the chance to be a very good artist and a very good illustrator, but for many people who might say, Yeah, but I'm not an illustrator, how can I use drawing? The cavemen did it, and sometimes their work wasn't so amazing, but still, today, we look at it, and we see quality in it, we can capture the emotion, we can capture the stories much better than if we had just three photographs in the

Deidre: cave.

Picasso famously said something like I knew, I had learned to draw like the masters by the time I was a teenager, but it took me all my life to learn how to draw like a child.

Daniele: Absolutely. And so I'm curious about one thing. So when I imagine you working for one of these hospitality organizations, be it a hotel or something else.

So I imagine you roaming, so basically being there, having your coffee, watching and observing and maybe illustrating. How does that work? What are the interactions it creates with the staff? How do people feel about it? Do they feel like observed and in a bad way? How does that work for you?

## The Role of Drawing in Capturing Hospitality Experiences

Deidre: So in general I could spend a couple of hours sitting somewhere and drawing and Sometimes nobody notices what I'm doing, but sometimes they do. And I remember there's a beautiful hotel in Buenos Aires called the LVR Palace. It's a very traditional hotel. It was based on the first Ritz in Paris.

And it's quite a formal place. And I was in their cafe and during the pandemic, I did quite a lot of drawing locally. And the waiter was just stunned. He was he couldn't believe that I had taken the time to draw. What he was serving me, so he complimented my coffee, et cetera, but I created a bond with him and then he moved to the Middle East and he reached out to me and he asked me to give him a reference, which I very happily did.

So that moment of interaction, I went back a couple of times, but I didn't know him before then, but that the connection that we made was a very strong one, such that he felt he could reach out to me on LinkedIn and ask me to give him a reference. And it's also made me realize you don't have to know somebody for 15, 20 years to give a reference because in he's probably the most attentive waiter that I had in that cafe, which I went to several times.

So that was a really nice connection.

From spying to noticing

Daniele: Hey, it shows something strong, which is that taking a picture, taking a photograph of something happening in a service. This is very different than taking the time to sit and illustrate it. For the people who are using the service, it's, it shows, oh, this is someone who cares.

It's very different because it's a long process. And also for people who are from the business. Because, it's, Oh, what I'm doing is taken into account into details because you have to observe a lot in order to draw. And it's less this paparazzi style of observation where it's like, Oh, I'm going to steal this picture.

Clack. Here it's more okay I'm going to watch what's happening and I'm going to take the essence of it. And I believe that this is something that I find extremely interesting because. It changes the relationship, us being, field researchers, in lab coats and with a watchful eye, like wanting to look what doesn't work and report it back, this kind of narrative to a narrative, which is much different of Having an artist in residence, as you say, having a daydreamer in residence who captures elements that are inspiring and gives them back as inspiring art pieces, which is very different, in the way we interact because often, these kind of shadowing things can feel a bit.

Or Mystery Shopper, they can feel a bit how can we say that? Intruding, maybe,

Deidre: and yes, and I've had that feedback before from different, I've had various conversations with. General managers to better understand what they need in terms of the mystery shopping sphere.

And some people are quite open, but others are quite close to having somebody come in to train the staff, or they just want somebody to come and go. But I've had positive reactions to, I've done some animated versions of my illustrations for training purposes as well. And the feedback has been very positive that it's very clear, it's very clear to understand, and it's inoffensive.

Because It's a drawing and it's as opposed to pointing out I was in this situation and this didn't work and this didn't work. It's turning it into quite a nice picture with opportunities to make things even better.

Daniele: Absolutely.

Deidre: And can I just add a point to, you talked about how the staff reacts.

So that caring aspect and interest works both ways. So when I've received a very warm welcome and great hospitality from an organization, I always go back. I Was in England for 10 days, and when we talked earlier, You pointed out three or four of my illustrations, and one of them was from the Peninsula Hotel in Paris.

I'm also an aviator, and I'm passionate about aviation. And I did an illustration of their rooftop restaurant, which is in homage to Lausanne Blanc. My French accent could probably be better, but it was the first the plane that, the first plane that attempted to cross the Atlantic. And I knew that the Peninsula had just opened a hotel in England, , around Hyde Park.

I decided to go and visit, just because I imagined it would be incredible and spectacular, and I had no idea that the rooftop restaurant in the new hotel is also it has two themes. One is aviation. And it paid homage to Concorde, and the second one is the automobile industry, luxury cars. I visited the day I was leaving the UK, I raced into London, and I had an immersive experience enjoying those two spaces.

And I went back because I'd had such a warm reception when I was in Paris, and yes, I decided to keep that connection or build a new connection there.

Daniele: I'd love to switch gears.

## Reflecting on the Process of Creating a Book

Daniele: You've been part of the community for this book series, Service Design Principles for a long time.

And so you've been both a reader, a reviewer, and now even a proofreader, which is something that we will, we'll speak a little bit more right after. But. I'm curious, how do you read these kind of books? Because I know that you have practical exercises to make out the most of these types of books that I know can be sometimes a bit overwhelming.

There is 100 pieces of information in one tiny book. And how do you work with that? How do you turn these 100 inspirations into something that you can use in your practice?

Deidre: I Think, Obviously, now you have, what, 400, so it's a big number, and I started off, I think I bought your first series online, and it was a video series of the first 100 principles, and then I was one of the brief readers, I think, for the second one, 200 to 300, and There, I just I got a little notebook and I just wrote down my, I think it was my top 10 because I knew that 100 was too difficult for me to retain just reading on first go, but I wanted to pick out my favorites.

So I, I took your 100 principles and I took 10 percent of it and I thought well, they're the 10 that I most identify with and that could be most useful for me. And then fast forward to the last quarter of last year, when I you asked if I would be interested in proofreading this version, and I did something similar.

In fact, in the, while I was proofreading you'll remember that I started writing to you in the notes I like this one, I like this one, maybe we can discuss this one more. And I was very pleased that the last principle, last but not least, 400 was a very important one for me because going in as a a service design practitioner or as a consultant or as a daydreamer even, it's really important to appreciate the existing status quo and Bye.

Really create empathy before coming up with a new idea, which was your principle number 400. So continuing to answer your question, when I was in England I bought this book for Agenda for 2024, and it's actually from the Victoria and Albert Museum, and it's a fashion illustration diary. So I've already started because I love Diaries that start with the year before, so this one starts on Christmas Day, starts from the 25th of December.

So I'm only going to use this this diary for illustrations. So in my regular practice of illustrating, I want to create a daily ritual. goIng back to how we could use some of the exercises in your book, now you have 400 some of your readers might want to take a service design principle a day.

Come up with 365 of them for this coming year. Or let's say 52 of them, once a week. Pick up one of your service design principles and then have, a weekly review of the principles. So I think anything we do daily, weekly, monthly, as long as it's on a regular basis helps us using that material instead of, I remember somebody saying if you go to a conference you're not supposed to just put the material in your library, you're supposed to put it into action.

So I think the same goes for your book. And also you've also divided it into sections. So that's also very useful. Somebody could say, okay, I'm going to spend, in January, I'm going to look at this section, then February at this section, and do it that way.

Discussing the Process of Proofreading

Daniele: Awesome. I think it shows really well how, a book like that doesn't have to be read, like you binge watch a Netflix movie, or a Netflix series oh, I have to read it in one go.

But you can also, have different ways of going through it. That's why also I like to call it like a toilet book, it's maybe a book that you maybe just read a principle every time you go on the toilet, because it's a two minute read. And it's a simple thing or having the routine that you say it's.

Once a week, I'm going to take one and read it, or maybe it's once a day, but I like this notion of having a routine. I think this is one element that is extremely strong. How can we build a routine around it? And then the other part, which is How can we make a selection? Because these are inspirations, they are ideas, tips.

But obviously, when when your mom gives you the her 200 tips that she learned over her 60, 80 years of life, there are some that relate to what you're doing and some where you say, this is your life, not mine. And that does it doesn't fit. But it's, it was interesting to hear.

And I think that's something that I'd like to highlight here, which is having the habits is a good is an important thing. So to keep it in a routine, but also to, to be mindful of. Not selecting over too much and taking them as inspirations and some fit in the moment, in the context, and some others don't, and that's fully okay.

Deidre: And then there's another way, another, Very useful, especially reading digitally. If you have a challenge I'm going to take the example of signage. So if you have a challenge in your business, you can say, Okay I need to do something around signage. And you'll be amazed that there are 84 references in your book to signage.

yOu can just go through them and get lots of inspiration that way. So keywords for a current challenge. I'm sure over the 400 principles, you'll find many keywords are in

Daniele: there. Absolutely. I love how you're suggesting new ways of reading a book. So basically a book is just is not intended as this start from the start and ends at the end, but you can redesign also that, I love how already what all, what we have mentioned having routines, we have mentioned having a way of selecting researching keywords, maybe also using randomness, just flipping through, opening and say, okay, how does that relate to what I'm doing today?

These can all be ways that we can go a bit beyond the books and maybe revisit them. And I think that's not something that is just true for this book, but obviously for many of these books that have a lot of content, a lot of knowledge in them so that. Maybe we can revisit them in those ways.

Deirdre's visual Principles Library

Daniele: And there is another thing that I'm very curious about. You are also someone who collects pieces of experiences in what I would call a principal's library, observations that you want to take and that will help you remember advices, nice things that you can reuse in in in order. In other projects and I'm curious how, what's the format that you're using for that? How did you get started? And what are your advices for people who say, Oh, I'd like to do that, but I don't know how to write.

How can people do that?

Deidre: Okay I first, the first article I had published, I think, recently, or in the last 10 years or so, it was a lifestyle magazine, an aviation magazine, and I approached the owner of the magazine and pointed out that the English translation wasn't perhaps a true translation of the Spanish version.

He invited me to translate the magazine, and then I commented that the art section could be more global, so I began to write the art column. It came out of just a chance meeting and that's how I started. And and more recently, in terms of my own series of illustrations, I think You encouraged me.

I started, I start the ABC process, by the way, with carte blanche because as a guest, as a customer, we don't walk into a hotel with a spreadsheet thinking, I'm going to check this off. It seems like that sometimes on review sites like TripAdvisor these days, but really we go to have a good time.

Even if we go on business, we're not thinking about. We're hoping that there will be a good desk situation, that we'll have good internet, but we don't go in with a checklist. So I always begin with carte blanche. But then, of course, we have to build structure to something in order to get a result from that.

I, in talking about the illustrations, I, a few years ago I did a trend forecasting course at St. Martin's College in London, which was very, really eye opening. So it taught me to look at future trends, and one thing that I've noticed in the last few years is that One way we're moving towards a paperless society books are coming back.

I have on the table there some of my favorite books. A lot of them are from Asseline, which is one of my favorite publishers. Some of them have beautiful illustrations in them. One is called Hotel Secrets. And this little journal was given to me by the marketing manager at the Standard Hotel in London.

And I love it for a couple of reasons. It's textured. And this is actually the, a copy of the facade of the hotel, which is wonderful. And when I go into a hotel, I always ask for some stationery. And in the worst case scenario, I'll be given one piece of paper, which always makes me giggle. Normally the person is very generous.

I'll get different And here I got a journal, which was beautiful, and I received it last year, and it's a work in progress, but the first illustration I did was of the library in the hotel. And the hotel has recreated like a city library, like a local library inside the lobby, with the book, kind of books that I remember as a child, which is a very long time ago.

And I've been noticing libraries in different hotels. When I did my drawing series going back to Asseline and a beautiful hotel in London which is called the Arts Hotel, I, it was my second or third illustration and I called it the Digital Detox because the hotel partnered with Asseline to have a selection of their books in every bedroom very nice for the guests.

And they had also sourced old telephones from, I want to say 80 year old, 90 year old telephones from around England, and they were the only phones in the room. So there was nothing digital in the rooms, and I love this idea of digital detox. That was about eight years ago. And so over these eight years, I've noticed more through the, through drawing and my observations that books are, have made a big return.

And. I think it was in 2021, there was a hotel conference in Manchester and it was Celine was one of the sponsors. Why am I connecting all these things to the drawings is that, that I find later on that the relevance of what I'm drawing. Sometimes it's a trend that's coming, sometimes it's something timeless like.

A beautiful pool experience, how can you create that, and that doesn't change over time going back to how to categorize these and, Make it more logical from the original daydream. That's what I'm working on now. So out of the 66 current illustrations, I want to add 14 more to make it into 80 and then categorize them into different guests different stages along.

Our experiences,

Tips when starting to build a principles library

Daniele: There is an advice that you're giving here, which is: Don't start with a master plan just getting started, collecting bits of experiences, tips, pieces of research, whatever resonates with you. And then with time, suddenly categories emerge. And oh.

For in your example, it was books, oh books make a comeback. This is an element that we have to take into account into in hospitality. And because you see that you have so many observations about books, suddenly you see, oh, there is something in here. And I like this aspect of not coming in it.

With this master plan, I'm going to have five categories in my principles libraries, and I want to have in each categories absolutely 20 principles. And just start collecting things, and suddenly you will see what emerges, which is a very different way of working than what we used to do, looking for usefulness right now, and instead being in, okay, what emerges?

And maybe there is something. Why did I relate to that? And the other advice that I love in what you're saying is you started with drawing instead of writing which writing can be for some people a tedious tasks, did I choose the right words? Oh is it too long? Is it too short?

And then you can edit a lot but you went with drawing where you were comfortable with. And I think the advice that I see in here is: The format of a Principles Library doesn't matter so much! Is it voice notes? Is it you making videos for yourself? Is it quick notes on sticky notes?

Is it drawings or is it written form? Whatever, as long as you capture elements and that you come back to them and then suddenly you rearrange them into categories, you will learn a lot. Yes,

Deidre: I think we have various. These formats open to us, and maybe, sometimes I find drawing is the most difficult one, but I'd like to show you an example of the book this is a book that I'll show the drawing first, actually, because the drawing the drawing of this book made me realize some details in the chairs in the oak bar that I mentioned, because they are also weaved.

The book is around 60 years old. So I, I did it in black and white. But you can see that there is a texture there. And then I started to draw the walls of the bar, which is this 15th century oak from France. And if you look at the original book. It's got a beautiful texture, and it's gold, and this is something we can't recreate digitally, ever, I don't think.

Yes, I'm very much inspired by tangible objects, as well as experiences.

## Deirdre's proofreading experience with this book

Daniele: Absolutely. And there is one part that I'd like to zoom in a little bit about your professional life, which is the collaboration we have at the moment with the proofreading of the book Service Design Principles 301 to 400.

And I have to say you, you had a very deep impact on the book because It's so different for me to work with proofreaders, who are experts in language versus proofreaders like you, who are experts both in language and in the experience industry and who have a deep understanding of the ideas and the processes and all of these elements.

So I'd like maybe to hear from you. How was it proofreading that book? What was that experience like?

Deidre: It was a very rewarding experience. It was fun. We talked a lot. Your feedback was immediate and very clear. But as when I began to, often if I'm given a task, I start doing something else because that's part of the daydream.

So I was trying to get to the words and then I was distracted, particularly on the left. Turn side where you had these lovely illustrations and lots of numbers. So my first feedback, as was not about the text, it was about the quantity of numbers and the additional numbers that were on the page that kind of took away from the number of the principle.

I guess I did go beyond the. The task of pre-reading, but right from the beginning because that was something that was just getting in the way from me every time I turned a page.

Daniele: Yeah. And it was so inspiring to me to get that feedback, of someone reading the book and saying. I want to read the book, but you're making it hard for me.

It's a pain because there are so many numbers. There is the principal number. Then I had back then still a little footnote number that brought back so that people could then read, go back online to the place where I have the timeline of these principles, then there was.

Page numbers, and then you also had then on the right side, footnotes in the text. So lots of numbers, which for me, I didn't see them because obviously I was too much in it. But for you, it was like a very emotional thing. I remember our conversation where you went, Oh, I'm stuck. I'm blocked by the numbers.

And it was so interesting to, to see that. And then to see how together we, we reimagined a bit that experience saying, Hey, why do we need page numbers? Let's remove them. We already have. Principle numbers. Why do we need to add the reference of each principle? How you can go further? Within the principle, why not keep that at the end of the chapter, at the moment where you want to go further?

When you're reading one principle, you're not already ready to go so much further. And I think this tiny element that you observed had a kind of a profound impact on how we redesigned parts of the book. So I'm so thankful. That's You were there and that you daydreamed a little bit while doing it because it changed the book.

And so not just in the words, but also in the way that people go through it. So thanks so much for that. You are

Deidre: very welcome.

## What should change in the next edition?

Daniele: And maybe for the audience. So you read that book what are things that you say for the future that you will change in the way this book is made? Or the series is made.

There will be one more book that will come out. That's a promise that I made myself to myself is that I'm going to go up to 500 at least. So it will be one more. And so what would be a piece of advice that you would give me to improve the next one?

Deidre: Oh,

Daniele: I know this is a question that I didn't that I didn't reveal before.

Deidre: Okay I think I would have to think about it. I think, I definitely think stick to I have another book here to show you I just received this as a gift when I was home, it's A Hundred Writers on Food, it's huge. So a hundred is a good number, a very good number as you're doing an international book tour, maybe you could have just be inspired looking at this book title.

I always get inspiration from everything that's been done before in some shape or form, so maybe it can be principal. Service Design Principles around the globe. onE of the people you interviewed mentioned that something was more, I think she was from India, maybe. Yeah, it might be. Did you go to India?

Yes. On the book tour? Yes. And she had mentioned that I was really inspired by her experience and her expertise, and she mentioned that maybe some of what she does is not necessarily relevant in other parts of the world, and I actually thought that it was. Sometimes we think, oh, it's, maybe it's not relevant to others, but so that's, could be a nice idea that the wrapping up the five, four, 400 to 500, you could have some kind of global things done specifically in a region or a country and then shared globally.

So that could, that's one idea.

Daniele: Like a hundred principles from a hundred different countries.

Deidre: Yes, exactly.

Daniele: Yes. oKay. That's definitely an inspiring addition to the and could be a very interesting way to close maybe the series, at least for a

Deidre: moment. Yes. Or you could do a hundred cities. That might be easier.

Yeah,

Daniele: it made my feeling a little bit easier,

Deidre: indeed. Because when you encouraged me to do the 60 drawings, it's another thing I want to do. I want to put them into an alphabet. But as I was trying to do them daily, that was too much for me. So I did A, B, C, and then it just, I forgot about it. Because the purpose at the time was getting it all done.

So then now, as you say, now you've got the time, each time you do 100 to reflect and refine a little bit more of how you do it, then I think yes I like the idea of a hundred countries, but maybe a hundred cities is more manageable.

Daniele: Yeah, I, it's definitely an idea that I'm going to explore.

And and who knows, maybe the, that one will be, will have either cities villages or countries as a kind of a different way to to read it or explore it. Could be very interesting.

Deidre: I'm going to stick with India for now, because I have an Indian cookbook, which is 50 curries of India.

I've given it to, I've gifted it to many people and it's my Cooking Bible for Indian Food, and the author was marketing manager at a hotel, actually, and she was asked to elevate the standards in the restaurant, so she went on a tour around India, and she went to the villages, and she found the best chef in the village for this dish, and so I love using the cookbook, because every time I look for a recipe, I read the story again.

Daniele: Yeah, it's so I'm going to go on a bit on a tangent but but obviously, at that time in the video, people who are in, are the ones who are very curious. So we're allowing ourselves to go maybe a bit in the, in uncharted territory here. But for me, this reflecting back and taking the time with you to reflect also doing this kind of book tour was something that was very inspiring.

Great. Yeah. And I'm thinking, how would it be interesting to, instead of doing a hundred principles, where it's me coming up with the principles and instead of asking people, to submit stuff which I tried worked okay, was a bit of a nightmare. I think both for people and me

Deidre: and there was a nightmare.

What coming up with

Daniele: the, no, like collaboration. Yeah, it's it's been it worked well in some aspects, but in other aspects, it was a bit of overwhelming, the quantity of messages to go through was a lot. And then I couldn't give back, as much as I wanted, which also then had a bit of an impact, I think on, on the expectations that people had, because I decided I could get very much in in depth and then and then I couldn't anymore because I had just to stay to the deadline.

And and here, one thing that changed for me in in this book tour was that, you have a scheduled hour to be with someone, and just one person, it's a very different interaction, where you can really go deep and I'm using your inspiration, what if in for the next book, we will organize something which will be instead of the book tour, showcasing the book, how it is, the book creation tour, where it's, meeting a hundred people from a hundred cities and maybe they are not service designers, there are lay people people who make services happen and and having a conversation with these a hundred people and then.

Coming out with each, from each conversation with one principle from the life of that person could be something quite inspiring, quite crazy, maybe, but yeah I'm stealing bits of your ideas and trying to build on it.

Deidre: yOu mentioned not service designers.

So I would just like to give a shout out to somebody who inspired me this year. Her name is Alicia. She's nine. She's my cousin's daughter, and she's also an artist, and she sent me something she'd found we all make mistakes. So everyone should carry a pencil with an eraser on it.

I Actually, I started buying erasers and having them in my bag and using pencils because it's a great way of iterating and improving and going back and Just, eliminating the mistakes, starting over. And and also I love the fact that she has such a wise outlook and shared her wisdom with me at the age of nine.

Daniele: Indeed. Indeed they are. Often we get the wisdom at the, in the places where we don't look for it. Definitely. Definitely. It's been a wide ranging conversation. It's a wide ranging conversation, I think that's how we say it in English. Thanks so much for it. Is there anything that while you prepared yourself for this call, where you said, Oh, this is something that I'd like to share.

This is something that I want to speak about, that I'd like to explore, that we didn't explore yet?

The Importance of Encouragement

Deidre: When I was I think I'd like to talk about encouragement. Because if, I think encouragement can go a long way, and you encouraged me to publish my drawings, and the other day when I went to the hotel in London the receptionist who was very nice and I explained that I wanted to spend some time in the restaurant, which is a new restaurant also, and it wasn't actually open, and she was very helpful she found the manager for me, and then she said, oh I've always wanted to write.

And I said, oh, so we've had a couple of conversations I wrote to her and I said, why didn't you start? You could start now. And in, in, in various situations, I've been told that at various ages. My cousin's son is now a pilot with Emirates. He's a captain, a young captain. And when he was 15 and I was 40.

or just before 40 I told him I always wanted to learn to fly or to be a pilot, actually. And he said, what's stopping you? And I thought, oh there isn't really anything. And I found a school the next week. So I think when, if we have something in mind, maybe we're daydreaming it. We don't know how to put it into action.

It's always important to encourage others to, to go ahead and to follow their story to follow their dreams. So thank you for encouraging me.

Daniele: Pleasure. And I think that's a very good call to action here, which is, whatever is something that you're putting on the side today while you're watching this.

And I'm sure that as people are listening to this conversation, they have something that, a little light bulb that comes like, Ooh, project A, project B, project C. If you're thinking about one of these projects at the moment, as a viewer or listener maybe think, what could you do today?

What's the smallest thing that you could do today that gets you a little bit nearer to that? Project A, Project B, Project C. It doesn't have to be complicated, it doesn't have to be grandiose, or the master plan, what's a tiny thing that you can do and maybe share it with someone. It doesn't have to be the world, it can be just a friend, to say, hey, I googled pilot schools.

That's already a lot, it's not, I selected one, but I googled pilot schools. And what will happen is that if you send that to a dear friend, the dear friend will say, Oh, you googled it, finally, awesome. So which one did you select? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then people will send you a lot of encouragements and it will go.

Go further. So I think this is a very cool call to action that you're giving for the community here.

Call to action

Daniele: And so as an ending note I think you gave a lot in this conversation, you gave a lot of advices, tips also, I think You give also something which is very important today, which is a a shift in how we look at, processes like shadowing or mystery shopper from a more emotional, intuitive, carte blanche, you said also, aspect, which I think are all elements that are a bit counterintuitive with a lot of what you're Today's service design culture, which are very important.

And so you gave a lot, but I'd like to ask you, what can people do for you? Is there something that people can do for you to give you back?

Deidre: yOu can also, you can always reach out to me on LinkedIn. I also have a, an Instagram account, a new one because Instagram took my account away as this has happened with many people in recent months.

And so I'm starting over. You could follow me there, it's Daydreamer in Residence, and yeah, reach out to me to see if there's anything maybe I can do for your organization through my drawing on experience.

Daniele: Awesome. So check the Instagram, check the art, especially we've highlighted already a few of the drawings here in the video, but once again

Diedre, it's been a big pleasure to be on this writing journey with you, to have your encouragements over the years, because you have been a very encouraging force and also to have you for this Edition as a proofreader who goes beyond.

Thank you so

Deidre: much. Thank you, Daniel. It's been a pleasure. Thanks.

Conclusion and Farewell

Daniele: Bye

Deidre: bye. Bye.

Nicolás Molina is a product manager who uses a service design mindset to bring to life early-stage services and startups.

Nicolás works from Colombia but impacts the design community worldwide by mentoring the next generation of designers and innovators.

With Nicolás we talked about the chapter “How Can We Help People Learn And Remember?”

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• How does our understanding of empathy and design evolves with age and experience.

• How you can apply Service Design to your personal life

• How to practically be more empathic with the people you work with

• How to remove the fine print in contracts and terms and conditions

• Why Service Designers should learn more about quantitative data

• How mature is Service Design in Columbia

• Free Course: Product Analytics Micro Certification, from Product School

• Book: This is Service Design Doing

Made with AI

This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Daniele: Hello, Nicolás. It's such a pleasure to meet you today.

Nicolás: Hello. How are you? The pleasure is all mine. I'm really happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me to this awesome book tour.

Daniele: It's such a pleasure to have you also because you're representing a country where I have never been to, which is Colombia.

Nicolás: That's true. That's true. You should come here. It's an awesome country. Whenever you want, just come by and I'll take you around. Awesome.

Daniele: I will come back to this because I have a lot of questions about Colombia. But before we go into the stuff about Columbia, I'd like to ask,

Meet Nicolás

Daniele: when you go to a birthday party, how do you usually present

Nicolás: yourself?

Oh, this is a very interesting and tough question. Because let me tell you a bit about my background. I'm a designer. But what I do, like my actual job is product management. So I'm going into all this product stuff with tech and startups and all that. But I'm actually a designer with a background in design.

So every time I go to a birthday party or meeting new people or whatever, and they tell me like, where do I work? What do I do? Most of the time I talk about Product, startups and like digital product, that's like my speech because I found that whenever I tell them that I'm a designer and I design stuff, I go into very tough conversation about, but what is design, what do you design and before I jumped into this product stuff.

I had this specific questions about do you design chairs or do you design graphic stuff? And I had to explain so much about... That design, for me at least, or on my perspective with all this innovation, service design and all this, is not about that specific stuff, but more about strategy service, product now that I do.

So I used to avoid this conversation about design and I go deeply into product, digital, innovation, strategy. Which I think is a bit easier for people to understand what do I do.

Daniele: Okay. So it's like your three year old answer is more on the product stuff. And then once people are a bit more mature in the design world, then you say, okay, services, experiences this kind of stuff also exists.

It's quite interesting to see this difference of answers. Exactly. Exactly. That's it. And can you tell me maybe, because it's super interesting to hear, that for me, there is always a thing where many of us, we call ourselves service design practitioners or professionals or designers or whatever we want to call ourselves.

But we always work. in, in other titles than what we have, what we really do in some way. And may I ask,

Product Design vs Service Design

Daniele: what's the difference for you when there is this big debate, product design versus service design. How do you feel about this conversation?

Nicolás: It's weird and it's tough because I have a mentor that she has a very interesting speech that she says.

That the beauty about design without a last name, without a different product design or design strategies or design, whatever, is that design is like a mindset and design is like a way of thinking. And probably more than a mindset is a way of solving problems. So if you are a designer, you have a way of solving stuff or solving problems.

And you can do it through services, through products, through experiences, through graphics, through physical objects. So I used to have some sort of a problem defining which sort of vertical I wanted to go into, but then I understood that I didn't have to make a specific choice. Because when you are a service designer, or a strategic designer, or a designer you have a way of thinking again and solving problems that allows you to tackle problems in different things.

So I don't fight anymore with. What kind of designer I am, it's not a big issue for me anymore. It used to be a big issue before, because for example, even I am a designer, but I have no clue about, graphics and like graphic stuff. I really suck about that.

So it's not my strength. So I used to say, I'm a designer, but I have no clue how to draw, for example, which is weird but now I don't have a problem with just saying I am a designer and I design stuff and it's really funny because in, in product or what I do now is that I don't design product.

I I do product management, which is really different than designing stuff. It's more like in a strategic role. So it's more about. Strategic design or service design probably within product perspective or environment different than actual product design, so I think we have different ways to call things, uh, but I just don't fight anymore with.

What type of designer you are, because I understand that design is a mindset, a way of solving things and problems and if you have that specific mindset, you just can solve problems anywhere you want. And an

Daniele: image that came to me while you were saying that is, like the fight between, that Italians sometimes have where, is it a focaccia or is it a pizza?

And it's at the end of the day, it's something which is like bread, which has some tomato sauce on it and some other stuff in it, and it's just delicious. And we just don't care if it's Focaccia, if it's a pizza or the other one. And then I think that here again, I see something which is very interesting, which is this.

It's this notion that once you, when you start in a field, you get very excited about using the right term for the right thing. And as you evolve, you just see, yeah, it's a bit more nuanced than that. Drawing the line between what is a product, what is a service is a bit difficult.

And and maybe it's more interesting to just say, we have a set, a mindset that we use and we can apply it to different things. And in some roles now, it's more focused on things that are maybe digital. Sometimes it's focused more on things that are physical. Sometimes it's focused on things that are more like products.

Sometimes it's focused on things that are completely intangible. , but the mindset are the same. And then how it's used is a bit, a little bit different because the end product is maybe a bit different. It's very refreshing to, to hear that to hear that difference. Like of, when we start in our career, we are very tricky about that.

And then slowly we just relax a little bit with that.

Nicolás: Yep. And then also you understand that companies. Need different stuff. So if you go into different industries and different companies, they even call the same role with different names. So there's no point about fighting if you are one or the other.

For me, it's more about how can you add value with this specific mindset and how can you even teach other people this way of thinking. So that everyone as a team or the whole team actually can begin solving problems in a similar way. It doesn't matter if, again, you are some sort of a specific role, designer, whatever.

It's about how to solve problems together in a different, in different industries and in different companies.

Daniele: That's very strong. It's a, it's... Also recognizing that companies also use terms because they have a history which is very personal. And then one company, they might call what you do, they say, that's exactly service design.

And then another one, they might say, this is exactly product design. But at the end of the day, the question is more like, What's the type of work that I can help you do? If you want to call it focaccia design, let's call it focaccia design.

Nicolás: Exactly. That's it. That's it. Okay.

Daniele: Okay. And so this is going to be a bit of a philosophical question, but I see that

Nicolás design evolution

Daniele: You're someone who has evolved in your understanding of design and and and your own approach to your work.

Are there other things that, where you now look back at your younger self and say, Hey dude, yeah, there you were a bit strict and now I'm a bit more relaxed where has aged on Don, what wonders in your professional design work?

Nicolás: I would say that whenever you go into university or to study these sort of things Sometimes you have a very specific view about where do you want to go, what do you want to do.

Sometimes, this is not the case for everybody. This was not like a big case for me, but somehow I understood that or I decided that I want to do like specific stuff. And then when you go out to the real world or to the workforce world you probably understand that it's not about what do you want to do specifically or what do you want to work, but how do you organize your ideas and how you become like or organize your strengths.

to be able to add value in different ways. This was a huge revelation for me because when I studied design and all this, I was way into design practices. Service Design, etc. And then I got introduced to the technical industry, like to the tech industry, right? And this is how I became product manager and I'm managing product design and different apps.

I've been working different startups for the last couple of years. So to answer your question, if I would have stayed in this I just want to be, like, a specific sort of role or a specific sort of designer. I wouldn't have allowed myself to get into this tech stuff which now I think there's a huge relationship between Service Design, Tech, Product Management, Product, Service, for me is, I like to call myself, I'm a service designer where I'm a product manager with a service designer mindset or way of thinking or something.

But once again, if I would have stayed with this mindset or this decision about, I just want to do something or become one specific thing. prObably I wouldn't allow myself to, to explore new things. And maybe I would have I wouldn't be where I'm at now, um, if I wouldn't have thought in that way.

Daniele: Strong advice for you, for the younger generation to say, you start with something, but where are you going to end is very different, might have different names and just be open to it. As long as... As you feel the mindset is right, that's like the most important thing. And then with years, you will add new elements to it.

And then suddenly, years later, you will come back to the mindset where you say, at the heart, I'm still doing the same thing that I was taught to do, just in a different context. And maybe with new skills that have never been taught to me back then, because it wasn't in that context.

Nicolás: Yep. And probably what I do now didn't exist, uh, 10 years ago or 20 years ago or something, so I always to say this and it's probably you have to treat your career with this same product or design or service mindset where you just have a couple of ideas or identify some problems Get some ideas, prioritize them and prototype and test things and try things.

If it doesn't work, just do something else. So what I'm trying to say here is that I found,

Applying Service Design to personal life

Nicolás: I find myself now, um, applying this service design mindset, not only to my actual job, but also to my career. To my way of thinking, to my way of doing things. And I understood this really recently, like a couple of, maybe one or two years ago.

And every time that I think about my career, what I do, what I like to do, etc. And I think, how can I apply this mindset to my career specifically? There's so many things that happen, so many new opportunities, so many new... Ways of tackling my work, so many new ways of professional or personal growth.

So I find that service design, strategic design, innovation, and all of this design similar concepts. hAve a, like a bigger opportunity to apply this, not only for specific stuff, like for jobs and stuff, but more broader stuff, career, life, et cetera.

Daniele: It's so funny. You know how.

Similar ideas come back in different conversations with different people. In one of the last conversations I had with Tulki, and he is from Saudi Arabia, just to show you like the difference from a guy from Switzerland, a guy from Colombia, and a guy from Saudi Arabia. And we all three have kind of the same.

element that we say, limiting service design, or whatever you want to call it. Let's, I'm going to just use service design as this broad term. But using just Service Design for project, work project, is so limited, because you can also use it for work relationships. And it's ah, okay, this is another thing.

Then you can start to say, oh, okay, if I could use it for relationships at work. Why not use it for relationships in general? And then suddenly you say, Oh, I use it for projects for work, but how could I design the way I work with my taxes? What if it was a service design project? If I would say, how can I make my taxes more fun?

Oh, this is a design challenge, which is very interesting. It's ah, okay, there is a, I have a completely other way to see it. And I think this is so much, this The realization, obviously, that comes with age often is, ah, we're focusing a lot of energy in the project stuff. And then sometimes we forget that the same concepts apply to other stuff.

And this is something that I often see, when I hear from Service Design. Oh. Management doesn't get our ideas. Then I ask, okay, cool. What's the language? What do they care about? It's oh, we don't know. It's okay, so could you do the persona of a management guy?

Ah, okay. Never thought of that. That's basically what you're doing for them. Now do it for yourself. And, ah, okay. They care more about numbers. So maybe I should speak less about the process, but more about the numbers. Okay. Oh, they care more about impact than what the, what are the tools that we use?

Ah, okay. It's interesting. Yeah. It's a big realization.

Nicolás: That's true. Very true. And,

Daniele: So I said at the start when you told me that you're, that you are a good representative of Columbia. And so I'm very excited about that too. And, uh,

Service Design in Columbia

Daniele: how do you see the kind of service design and innovation scene in Columbia?

Maybe how has it evolved in the last years?

Nicolás: When I graduated from the university, like studying design and all this I always thought that. What I studied didn't have much of application or you couldn't apply much of what I did in the actual market. And I think one of the things that I did is that it made me force myself to...

to look for different opportunities, to look for how to apply this in a real world, because for me the theory and the real world is a bit, sometimes it's a bit different or a bit far away. But nowadays I find that this innovation stuff or design stuff or service design stuff is more a reality for people and for companies.

I believe that because of startups there's a lot of, it has been the startup culture in Colombia has been growing a lot for the past couple of years. So we have about, I don't know, a couple of really important startups nowadays. And this has made the market to explore more about design like specific roles related to startups, which are UX, UI design, that sort of stuff, product design.

But in terms of innovation, I think that companies are now learning how to do it, understanding the importance. And I would say investing a bit in terms of how to be more innovative, if this is a correct word to say, how to bring designers into the specific teams, how to get designers into C level positions how can we have companies that think about the user, that think about user needs.

Not only about numbers, profit, and all that, which is really important for companies. But I'm trying to understand that companies in Colombia nowadays they're starting to understand this in a bigger way which didn't happen before, before if you were a designer or, even the word, the name of a service designer, I think didn't exist.

10 years ago, or even 5 years ago, this is barely starting to, to people understand how does it work, what do they do. And this is really hard because as we were, we're talking about this before, if you are a service designer or a strategic designer, you are like a generalist. So you know, a lot of things.

But you don't draw stuff, you don't design specific stuff. So for companies or for management, I think that sometimes they understand the value, but sometimes it's difficult for them to understand how can I measure this person, what do they do exactly. They understand that they add a lot of value, but I think this sort of KPIs, metrics, OKRs, that sort of stuff, somehow, I think is a bit difficult still but the good news is that companies and people around They are understanding the importance of this.

So

Daniele: it feels like it's a bit of the startup scene who is pushing and that people from that then see, ah, okay, design really works. Ah, okay, cool. If the startups do it well, and it helps them to grow, maybe we can steal a few things and then it trickles down to other companies.

Nicolás: That's how I see it because if you go into a really traditional company And you look into, which are the designers that they hire, they probably go into graphic designers, because they need marketing campaigns, they need flyers, they need traditional stuff.

You, you don't see strategic designers, uh, working for those companies, like innovation hops in those companies. This didn't happen before. Now I see that this is. Not very common, not that every company has one, but it's like a trend that is beginning to grow. And

Daniele: it's very inspiring, to see how every country has a bit of a different path, in some countries it's government that is pushing and then It's like other sectors then follow and say, Oh, if the government does it so well maybe we have to, we can learn something from it.

In other places, it's the startup world, which is pushing, and then it gives a bit of a different flavor, to, to the service design that is practiced. Especially with, I imagine there might be a bit of a technical aspect, a bit of a digital aspect to how service design is also perceived in Colombia, which might be a bit different than how it's maybe seen in the UK.

Nicolás: Yep, yep true, definitely.

Daniele: Awesome. And I'm super excited because, I'm slowly getting to know you better, which is always something very interesting. And to go deeper in that, I'd love to, to use the opportunity of the book Service Design Principles. 300, one to 400, after the second one, I always have to think about the numbers.

And I'd like to use that opportunity to poke around to, to understand your relationship, with service design, how you see it and how you see its value. So my first question to you would be,

Good Stuff: Shadowing for empathy

Daniele: what's one thing that you resonated with in the chapter that you read, which was, how can we help people learn and

Nicolás: remember?

Awesome. I would say that one of those sub chapters or specific chapters, which was let me read it, forced me to shadow someone else from time to time. I found it really interesting because in the book or yourself, you talk about What if you follow somebody so you can understand what they do, and maybe broaden your information, your knowledge about how to do different things, how to apply your knowledge to other fields.

But I see it in a very interesting way, or at least, like, I understood it in a very interesting way, and it's... If you work in a company, if you work in a team, if you work like with other people, which is a must for service designers, because service designers, we don't work by ourselves.

We need a team to work, we need a team to do stuff, to do projects, to do research, to come up with ideas. So service designers by a fact, we are team members, and sometimes I think that is very important for people not only to understand or to get some knowledge about what other people do, but to have this important word for us, which is empathy, and empathy is about not only how do you perceive other people work and et cetera, but how you actually getting this people flesh to understand how the this person feels.

What what's hard for them, what's easy for them. And I think that, and these specific chapter made me remind this because when you shadow somebody, you don't only learn about what this, like how can you apply stuff, how can you learn stuff, but also the effort that this person is putting in their job, so I, I remember a couple of my, my. diFferent jobs conversations that I've had, and it's some of the teams like saying, I don't understand why this other team is so slow or why don't they don't send me stuff or what, why it takes them many weeks or many months to do something. And thinking about, again this specific topic, if this other team would have gone into the other, team A into team B.

and understand that the task that they're doing is really hard. or that they don't understand it correctly, or that everything that could happen, this, this empathy stuff, or this empathy concept, would be a very, or at least an easier way to do it, to understand the other people. If you shadow somebody, you really understand what they do, why is it hard, why is it easy.

If you probably didn't give the enough information or the correct information for them to do stuff. So I really liked this specific chapter because the first word that came to my mind is empathy and for service designers or designers I think this word is. It's a word that we talked about, I don't know many years ago but it's still a really relevant word for us.

So that's that's something I really liked.

Daniele: I love how you come back to the word empathy because, often one of the way I pitch these books is say, we often hear the advice be empathic. And then it's like, how the fuck do I do that? It's and and and I think that's where, sometimes there is this gap of what's the very practical down to earth thing that I can do.

And I think, as you say the shadowing part is not only to learn the technical stuff of, ah, okay the IT guys, they do it like that. Ah, oh, I didn't know about that. But also the emotional part, seeing them receive a request. And then be, ah, damn again, and say, ah, they forgot this again, or this doesn't make any sense.

What are you speaking on? And then see, ah, okay. Why is the emotion so strong, and what can we do about that? And and one thing that I find especially interesting is, often we have this word empathy, which is very, a snowflake word. It's like a, Oh, everything is beautiful.

And we all love each other. And here, what we're saying is we sometimes have to force ourselves to be in a situation where we can be empathic because it's not easy. It's I have no good reason to spend a day working or just watching what team B does if I'm in team A because I have so much stuff to do.

And so how can the organization, put us in a situation a bit by force, that then empathy happens. And I think this is a very interesting trigger. How can we go beyond the. It's lovely to do empathy, but how can we force us or push ourselves to be in these moments? And I'm curious, do you have other tricks that you came up with in your own life where you were like, okay, oh, this forced me to be empathic.

But if I wasn't forced to be in this situation, that would never happen. Do you have, do you see other ways to push a bit the empathic aspect?

Nicolás: Yeah maybe I think you said it better than myself empathy, this specific word, we always talk about it in a pleasant way the typical word is empathy.

Putting in the shoes of the other people, that's a typical phrase but I found that empathy is more about not understanding what's good for the other person, but what is hard for him. So what is really tough about what he's doing, does he have a, like a personal problem is he passing through a, difficult phase in his life?

I don't know. So sometimes what I try to do or what I've learned with experience probably is.

Reading body language to build empathy

Nicolás: To read people in a better way or in a more empathic way. So whenever like I'm in a meeting or I'm in, in following, making a follow up of projects and stuff. I try to read people's faces or people.

Like physical gestures. And I try to understand if what I'm saying to this person, they really don't understand me, or I need to be more clear, or they just really angry because I said something that they hated, so I try to so the first thing I try to do is read people's physical gestures.

And then I try to go into an empathic way in terms of what's going on with him right now. Because we're not machines. We are not like little robots that we're happy every single day. And we are super like good at our jobs. We're not like that. We're human beings. So I tried to go into that, reAd the present right away and then try to understand if everything is okay and that and then move forward with it.

Daniele: Which is a very good advice, I think, it's not just delivering an information, but seeing the reaction and often do the body language reaction, it's a, one thing that I often say in workshops is when watching people, I say, Oh, your word said yes, but your body said no, I don't want this.

Could you please tell me why your body said that? And then people say, yeah, okay, I agree. I'm a bit stressed about this or I have to say yes because I know it's important, but it's going to suck for me. It's okay, how could we make it suck a little bit less? And then you see already the body, okay.

Yeah. And then you say, okay, that gives a good sign also or the opposite, when you're speaking about something, which is a big commitment and people very relaxed, maybe you didn't understand that this means that it's going to be a shitload of work. So let's clarify that.

Exactly. Exactly. And so when it comes to empathy, is there something that. In your view, again, has it been changed? So today we're a bit in a young young Nicola versus older Nicola. And I think it's quite interesting, to have these comparisons.

Nicolás empathy evolution

Daniele: Is there something that has changed in your approach to empathy in the last years?

Nicolás: Yes, I think I understood that what I probably really like about being a designer Service Designer, all this is to be able to work with people, um, and to be able to help people. I have a really a truth feeling about, helping people solving problems and people People, persons, is a really important word for me.

I didn't, I probably knew this before, but it wasn't like a really huge statement. Maybe when I was studying or in the uni or whatever. But, in the last couple of years, I have understood that people is this specific term that for me is huge. If I have to prioritize I don't know, people versus whatever else people definitely would be something that I really prioritize.

And like tying that together with empathy, I think that this relevant, that people is relevant for me, gives me I would say a tool or a strength. To be more empathic, because I understand that working with people or working for people is what makes my work successful.

So I try to think in people every single time. It's not that I don't think about the business because I understand about business, I understand that we need businesses to be profitable and all this sort of stuff. But if we don't think about people, for me at least, it's really hard to think about a profitable business that doesn't think about people, that people is not in the center of their strategy and probably this is what has helped me.

In the last couple of years to be more empathic thinking about people's problems and I'm just going to throw a very funny or I don't know how to say it phrase, which is fall in love with the problem and not with the solution. This is something we talk about a lot in, in, in design, in product.

And when we talk about problems, we talk about people's problems, so if you think about. Which are the problems or the opportunities or the needs of a certain group of people is easier for you to think about solutions, not the other way around. If you think only about solutions, you're maybe losing or forgetting about which problem are you working for, or which problem are you trying to solve which is...

Sometimes, or I found that it's easier for people for, managers, for anyone to think about, first about solutions, then to go back and think about what are we trying to solve. Because we as humans... We are programmed to solve things, to solve problems. So it's a natural thing for things for us.

But to think about again, which problem are we trying to solve? Which person has this problem and all this like background? Stuff is a bit harder. Once again, people, empathy, problems, opportunities, then solutions this is what I think has helped me to be more empathic.

Daniele: tHis fall in love with the problem instead of the solution, and then we can go even a step further. That's basically what you're suggesting here to say, fall in love with the people, not the problem, and then once you're really in love with the people, if you're really in love with someone, we all have that, where, your partner says, ah, this sucks at work, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

If you love her. So you're going to say, honey, how can I help? But it doesn't come from, I love the problem because I really don't love her problems personally. I have no love for that type of problem, but as I love her, I want her to be happy. And which is like a very interesting step, having this don't fall in love.

with the solution, but the problem, and then don't fall in love with the problem, but the people, which is quite a step by step approach to, oh, okay, now we're zooming out. Yeah,

Nicolás: Sounds amazing. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that for myself. That's awesome. Thank you for that.

Daniele: I'm going to steal it from you.

We both stole ourselves, which is cool. So let me ask now, if we zoom out and we come out of of the question of the element that resonates with you.

The bad stuff: fine prints

Daniele: What is something where in the chapter that you read, were you saying, Oh, that sucks. And how did it make you think about something where you said, I think it should have been written in that way.

That would have been

Nicolás: interesting. Okay. I have to say that it's really hard to think about this one because Every single principle resonates a lot with me but if I have to choose one, um, I would say that is the one that said, teach me something with the bills. And basically what the book said is, uh, the bills is something that, that most people read the whole thing like the bank bills and all that.

Because you don't want to pay something that you didn't, you don't owe to the bank, et cetera. So these are the type of documents that people really read it through. And the idea of the, of this chapter is to even be able to use the fine print to give relevant information for the people, which I find it really interesting, but probably what I hated about that specific part, it's not what the book said, but I really hate the fine print.

And I hate the fine print because I think it's one of those things that is against people, I've worked in different fintech and intratech startups and projects where one of the main objectives of the whole company was to remove the fine print because there are some industries, I don't want to talk about like bad things about different industries, but there are some industries that treat the fine print, um, as an excuse to sell stuff or to, so you signed something that you didn't know, you didn't read because it wasn't the fine print.

I have a really, I would say, Personal fight with fine prints and that's why as soon as I read that, I was like, no, you shouldn't write, you shouldn't use fine print for anything. But I understand what the book said. It means, I'm trying to say I understand how to use fine print for positive stuff, for good stuff, for people instead that for like negative stuff as it is used right now.

So that would be my, my, my black spot in that specific chapter.

Daniele: Thanks so much for sharing and I think it's... I'm very curious, how, let me say it like that. Often I hear people saying, Oh, you can't remove the fine print. That's not possible, and conditions, they have to be these 30 page long documents with the part, which is all in capital letters, because other ways it doesn't work.

And often people just react to it. No, that's not possible. And so you have a bit of a story, maybe that.

How to remove the fine print?

Daniele: Could you share a bit more about how does a company remove the fine

Nicolás: print? My, my quick question, I'm sorry, my quick answer is because we had a really cool design team and thanks to the design team that we had, we understood that fine printing was a strategy against users.

It was for companies and for, managers and stuff, but it was against users because users didn't read them or even if they read them, they didn't understand them because most of fine print. is written in a very technical language, again, not for users. Doing research and being able to communicate this research or the research results to management team we were able to even prototype and make tests.

In, in, in favor of users, so we could communicate everything that we had to communicate in a better way, that users understood things so that they feel more they, they had a very like a positive feeling about the product, what they were reading, what they were receiving, but you but we didn't have to write.

Like negative stuff in the fine print and going back to our previous questions and conversations, that's why design, service design, strategic design is so important because You try to understand a group of users, you try to understand not only your final user, but the company as well, like different stakeholders, and then you try to match their different needs with the product, and then you need to add value with whatever product or service you're designing, and this is the only way we could tell management team that fine printing was not only like a, not a proper way to do stuff.

But it was a negative way to do stuff because the customers were receiving like a negative message from the company, or from the service they were buying. sO we tried to turn that around in terms of how can we send the same message? How can we make that the user commits to us in an insurance, in an, in a FinTech project?

In a bank account, whatever, without tying him up with weird stuff that we write in fine print. So once again, my short answer is... Because we had a really amazing design team.

Daniele: Kudos to that team. I definitely I see that they've last they gave a lasting impression to you. And and then I find extremely interesting, these steps that you're describing, which which if I try to synthesize it, it's basically you're saying.

First, obviously we need a good understanding of our, the people we serve. Once we have that, maybe it comes out that fine prints are a problem. Then we can bring that up and say, Oh, there is a problem here. And we can translate that problem into a language That's what management cares about, which is not just, fine prints philosophically feels fucking people over.

No it's less about that. It's Oh, when we do that, it's, it has an impact on the brand, on how people perceive us on the trust level. Oh, okay. This is an interesting problem. How do we solve it? Hey, let's make an A B test. We, we can very simply show to different groups of people same group of people, but divided in two, say, hey, one group will receive the normal thing and the other group will receive the new thing.

And we will see, how are the trust levels? How do people feel about the brand? How's the brand image? And and then we can then prove, oh, this, It has value to change the fine print because it enhances trust. And so I'm very curious about one little detail. I don't know if if you can go into that with all the NDAs we signed, obviously, sometimes we're limited in what we can say, but

Metrics to prove fine print sucks

Daniele: was there a specific metric that you used?

To see if the fine print was useful or not, or damage, or

Nicolás: damaging. I was just going to say that because you need to go like deeper in terms of, you, you cannot have only opinions about usage, engagement, and that. You need to go deeper into data. So what I'm, what I try to do every single day.

With the design team, product teams and everything is we need to make decisions based in data. So we need to have two types of data, like qualitative data and quantitative data. All the research, user personas, all that sort of stuff, problems, needs, and everything is about qualitative data. And then we need to be able to measure things.

So we need a quantitative data, right? So this is where metrics, KPIs, OKRs, and all these different types of metrics come together. In this specific project, I remember that we used a couple of engagement data. It was something like how many people opened this mail or this app or this landing page versus the other group of people that didn't have that specific communication.

What about trust? If you run a survey to both teams. What do they say about recommending this app or this service or this product to their family or these sort of stuff, and I think data is huge, is really important.

The importance of understanding quantitative data for designers

Nicolás: And I found in my career in design, uh, that we as designers are not that familiar with data.

We see this more as a. Management decisions, management sort of way of working, way of thinking. So I think that another recommendation for designers in that that they're going to see this conversation is go deeper into data. Let data show you the way around.

Don't think, don't use data only like rough numbers only, but learn how to use data in a better way, in a proper way. Because with data is a really interesting way to, to convince people about something. Instead of you trying to preach an idea or to convince people about something. If you show them data, it's like easy for them to understand.

Daniele: It's the difference between convincing and proving where we need both, sometimes we need to be able to say, people tell us that this is really something that they hate. They use these kinds of words where they say, Oh, I feel fucked over. It's very strong language for us.

Oh, this is. Qualitatively, we can say that, and then you can prove, it's not just that they think that, it's, it has an impact on behavior. We see that people engage less, we see that the NPS scores are way, way lower that's interesting stuff. So the combination is definitely important, and that...

I hope your call to action to get into statistics and and a bit more quantitative stuff will be heard. And it's definitely one thing where myself I'm slowly getting in that road and and that's made, that gives a good transition for the next question.

Recommended resources

Daniele: What are resources that you would recommend, for people like me who are starting a bit, their journey, maybe in.

Quantitative data but also in general, you read the book you read the chapter and you might say, oh, I see there are a few additional resources for people who want to go further. What would you recommend?

Nicolás: Okay we are designers in product designer and everything. I like to see our, career as generalists.

This means that you need to be able to be able to do a good job, you need to know. A little bit about something, like in a broader way, is not that you have to go deeper in specific stuff, you can if you want, and it's part of your job and your career but I think we have a generalist career instead of a specific one so in terms of data, analytics and all this, There's a lot of free courses, there's a lot of information online maybe try to go into information that gives you knowledge about how to read stuff, how to read some data.

And how to be able to communicate that, not because you're going to be the one who's going to, go into a data set or a database and play with it and do something, but because you have to be the one that if you are given like a dashboard, you need to be able to understand it. And make decisions with it.

So it's not that you're going to take the rough data and do something with it, but you need to, our job as designers is to make informed decisions. And this means whenever you get, you're facing against a data set or a dashboard or whatever try to understand the data, like in a broader space and use the data for decision making.

So that's one short piece of advice. And the other the other advice that I would like to give to whoever is watching this conversation is a book that has has helped me to apply all this. Design stuff, service design stuff, how to do this, because I found that there's a lot of information on what it is if, it's not that easy to explain what it is, but there's a lot of theoretical information out there, um, but I found a book that I have it right here, that is called, This is Service Design Doing, I'm going to show it to you guys, This is the book and I use it a lot because I find that this book not only teach you how to, what is it about, like what's design what's service design, but it gives you a lot of different and really easy tools that teach you how to apply it, how to use it in your daily basis, how to use it in your work, how to use it if you're mentoring somebody.

How to use it if you want to come up with a business, how to use it, how to apply knowledge. And for me, being able to apply knowledge is really important because we need people to do stuff. We need thinkers and we need people to understand stuff, but we also need people to apply stuff in companies.

Like in their specific market, in their specific country so this book for me is a must read and a must have for service designers, and whoever wants to jump into this business. Spectacular career.

Daniele: I think that's one of the strongest book recommendation I have ever heard. So I hope people will see the passion that you have for the getting Things Done approach.

That is also given in that book. Definitely. And yeah. For people who might say, oh, but where do I get free courses on how to read data and this kind of stuff, a good place to start is some courses that you can find on platforms, like Coursera, where you know that it's a university behind, so you know that they the knowledge is good enough.

Plus often these kind of platforms, offer also free courses. And introduction courses, which often As you say, for service designers, a good introduction is good enough, because we are generous, we don't need to be able to do all of the complex statistical analysis ourselves, but we need to be able, when we receive a report, to ask questions about But how is it that this and this correlates and understanding the difference between correlation and other things and causality and say, ah, okay, when people say correlation, it's not the same thing that causality, ah, okay, now I understand the thing and but you don't need to be the one being doing then SQL stuff and this kind of fancy things.

And I think this is also a good element that might count people a little bit like, I don't know anything about data, it's so huge, it's okay, just have a good introduction and it's good enough, because as you say, We're doing we're, we are in the practice stuff and therefore the books on the practice are very important.

Last advice: build a service

Daniele: Before we come to a close is there anything else about the book or about service design in general that you'd to share where you say, Oh, we didn't have the time to speak about that, but that I'd love to share that.

Nicolás: Is there something like that? Yeah, I would say that service design is something that you learn by doing.

So if you want to go into into learn more about this, into. More practical stuff I would say that now we have a lot of easy tools to create a product, create a service try stuff, use AI, or whatever is out there once again, this didn't exist 10 years ago or even five years ago.

So just try to do stuff. Learn by doing ask for a lot of feedback look for mentors. I find that this is actually how we met, right? Because I was, I saw your content, I fell in love with it, and then I were, contacting you every now and then to ask questions and to do stuff. I find that LinkedIn has a lot of people.

willing to teach stuff they have like proper mentorship programs, like paid programs, which are amazing. And then there's other people that, you can reply a message or a 30 minute call for free, whatever. Just jump into this have experience, and yeah, service design is about, for me at least, is learning by doing.

Do stuff, learn about it, iterate, prototype, learn stuff every now and then if you have a new project, you're going to learn so much about it just jump into it and. And do it by yourself.

Daniele: Excellent advice. I would call it Lemon stand advice, which is basically saying, people say, but, ah, I don't have the possibility to work in service design.

Build a lemon stand outside of your house and sell lemons lemonade, and you'll learn something and people will complain that it's not enough bubbly, or that the price is way too high, or something else, or the police will come, and then you will say, oh, there is a backstage. to take into consideration.

There are processes. Oh, fuck. Or if you are afraid of doing it in the real world, you still can do it digitally. And today you can create tiny apps, create tiny digital services where you will do all the possible mistakes, which will show you, oh, it's a bit more difficult than we think. And you will then have the language when you will go back to a bit of what the theory is saying.

Ah, that's what they mean with backstage. Okay. Oh, that's what is a customer journey. Okay. So I think this is a great advice which I'd love to give to to push even more, which is really, hey, build. A service, even if you are a service designer in a company, build your own service because there are parts that you have never worked on, which you will only discover once you have put your hands in it.

And it doesn't have to be something complex. It doesn't have to be something that you do for your life. It can just be something for a few days, a few hours even. And

Nicolás: you live and learn things like how to sell, how to do marketing, how to communicate, because sometimes we as designers or, doctors, I think they have the same thing.

Lawyers have the same thing. They just learn and do, whatever they're educated to do. But in the real world, you need to be able to sell, to be able to communicate, to, so when you build something for yourself you're going to learn so many things.

Daniele: So there's a great call to action here, is build something and then send it to Nicola and say, I'd like some mentorship, could I maybe get a bit of feedback?

And I'm sure that obviously if your work is interesting enough, you might have some opportunity there. We'll be

Nicolás: happy to help anyone.

Daniele: That's really cool. These moments are always elements where we say we, we share a lot of knowledge, but I'd like also to have the opportunity for you to ask for something to the people watching can be, interacting with you on LinkedIn, can be anything else.

Get in touch with Nicolás

Daniele: What is it, something that you'd like to ask to people? Because you gave a lot, and so what can people give back to you?

Nicolás: Yeah that's awesome. So I would only ask to follow me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active. I like to share knowledge. I like when people, contact me about feedback, about mentorship.

I do a lot of mentorship nowadays. And the people that I mentor now I like to call them product people, because it is product people, designers, product managers. Service designers, strategic designers, everybody that is about how to do services, how to do products. So follow me on LinkedIn give me a thumbs up every time you like a couple of comments and send me a couple of messages.

I'll be happy to help, happy to engage in, in interesting conversations. So yeah just give me a follow up and let's contact on LinkedIn.

Daniele: Awesome. I hope you will receive a lot of very good requests and and that your mentorship will become so big that that suddenly you will have to create a program that will be

Nicolás: smaller.

I hope so. I hope so.

Closing words

Daniele: We come slowly to a close, but I'm extremely thankful to. That we had this time to, to meet a bit deeper than what we do usually, in written in written conversations. So thanks so much for agreeing for this moment and also for all the very good advice that you shared, for all the knowledge that you shared, I'm extremely proud to you.

No, thanks.

Nicolás: Thanks to you. I enjoyed this so much. Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure and an honor. So thank you again.

Daniele: And have a lovely evening. Bye bye. Thank you.

Marc is the host and founder of the Service Design Show. The show already has nearly 200 episodes

Marc is also a Service Designer by trade as he co-founded 31Volts, the first service design agency in the Netherlands. Marc also shares his passion for Service Design with courses, through his website ServiceDesignJobs.com and Circle, a tribe for in-house service designers.

With Marc, we discuss the chapter “How Can You Help People To Not Break Shit?”

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• How to use parts of your service that break as an opportunity to rethink your service.

• Why if your service breaks it might mean that you should find better users.

• Why you should make it harder to become a customer

• Why to become a better service design professional you need to find your tribe.

• The difference between a tribe and a community

• The questions to ask to learn from another service design professional

• Why professional learning shouldn’t be a constant rush but more something you block time for periodically

We also explore the “First Aid Kit” metaphor to explain the granularity of Service Design Principles, their strength and even their danger. A first aid kit with band-aids doesn’t replace brain surgery when it’s needed.

Join Circle, the tribe for in house service design professionals

Made with AI

This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

How can you help people do not breach it? That's what we discussed with Marc Fonteijn. In this conversation for my international book tour.

Marc is the host and founder of the Service Design Show. Marc is also a service designer by trade. As he cofounded 31 volts. The first Service Design agency in the Netherlands. Marc also shares his passion with courses, his website servicedesignjobs.com, and Circle a tribe for in-house service designers.

In this 44 minutes conversation, we cover a lot of ground. We explore topics like.

How to use parts of your service, that break as an opportunity to rethink your service.

Why if you service brakes, it might mean that you should find better users.

Why you should make it harder for people to become one of your customers.

Why to become a better Service Design professional, you have to find your tribe.

The difference between a tribe and a community.

The questions to ask to learn from another Service Design professional.

Why professional learning, shouldn't be a constant rush, but more something you block time for periodically.

We also explore the first aid kit metaphor to explain the granularity of Service Design Principles, their super powers and even their dangers. A first aid kit doesn't replace a brain surgery when you need it.

Thanks so much tomorrow for this lovely conversation.

Daniele: Hey, Marc,

such a pleasure to see you once again.

Marc: Hey, Daniele, a Dutchman walks into a bar and sees a Swiss French German ish man.

Daniele: Could be a start of a joke,

Marc: indeed. Maybe for some people it already is.

Daniele: I have a bit of a tradition which is starting with a very simple question in this book tour,

Meet Marc

Daniele: when you arrive in a birthday party, how do you usually

Marc: present yourself?

Nowadays, I just say I'm a YouTuber. Yes. No. I've let go of the ambition to try to explain at birthday parties what I do. I just tell something that people understand. And if they're interested in learning more, I'm happy to share with them. So I just say, I do YouTube, I run a podcast and then people either are interested or aren't.

Yeah, that's usually how I do birthday parties these days.

Marc's Service Design Show

Daniele: Awesome. And if in that birthday party, I will be with you, I would basically come and say, Hey Marc, tell them about your podcast. What would you then say?

Marc: So I would first ask what do you do? What is what kind of work do you do?

And then they will say, I'm an whatever, I'm an HR professional. And I would say, you know what there are probably people in your field, in the HR field who have interesting ideas, interesting stories, interesting best practices, models, methods, frameworks, ways to think about your profession.

And wouldn't it be awesome? If you could learn from those people on a pretty regular basis, and that's exactly what I try to do for the field that I'm active in, and that's service design. So the podcast is about interviewing some of the brightest minds in the space of service design and service design related topics and sharing that with the broader community, helping people to get the skills, knowledge, to make impact, and maybe a little bit of Courage and motivation to actually do

Daniele: awesome. I think there are a few other things that I'd like to point for maybe the ones that don't know you yet as much which I'm quite interested in and that I think we should cover. I would just name a few things and then you can you can pick the ones that you feel more passionate about at the time.

Marc's Circle

Daniele: So a few keywords that I associate with you are service design jobs. Service design salaries another one is circle and then there is also for me this kind of, you have courses. So which one of these keywords would you like to jump on?

Marc: Yeah. If I have to. So if I had to pick, then it's at this moment, definitely Circle my mind is going into communities these months, maybe even years already.

The Circle is a community for in house service design professionals. So service designers who work within organizations and trying to change those organizations from within in this community that we're building we meet on a bi Monthly. By weekly. Every two weeks basis, we have events and it's really community driven.

It's about sharing those stories, those raw, unfiltered stories that you don't read about in books or here at conferences or see in presentations. So this is a community for really. Where you get to see the dirty hands than any gritty stuff of service design. I've set up this community about two and a half years ago, and it's fascinating to see how it's evolving.

I think the interesting aspect is that we're. A bunch of people who are thinking about how to design services and the community is a service. So we are starting to design a service for ourselves, which is a bit meta, but it's awesome.

Daniele: Yeah, indeed. There is a lot of, to think about when building communities and I really resonate with what you're saying with this.

The things that they don't teach you, in courses, in conferences and this kind of stuff. Could you give maybe one or two examples of these elements, of the nitty gritty, the hidden, that people get to discover in something like Circle? Because I think, I think Circle is one of these opportunities, but this is something that we already talked about another time we met where we said You know replicate it, replicate this kind of things also in your own circle, build your own circle, because then you will get to those learnings.

So what are these kinds of learnings that people can get in such circles?

Marc: What are, it's, I'll try to come up with some specific examples. There have been so many stories that it's hard to even recall one concrete one. But what I'm seeing that's happening is that there is a lot of serendipitous learning.

And that's the phrase I use. You learn about things that you didn't even know that you wanted to learn about. So it's it's the same experience as wanting to cook a specific meal and then having a recipe and then going through those steps. Versus actually seeing somebody or standing next to somebody who's cooking and seeing how they messed up or even better hearing the stories about how they have messed up this specific meal three times.

And then if you do this one thing differently then it all works or it doesn't. Like again it's very. It gets to the very detailed level. So we recently talked about how do you do onboarding with new clients? How do you take them in that, what are the steps that you take new clients for service design project in the first hour that you have with them to make sure that you're off to a good start.

And somebody just presented like literally the agenda that they have. And we had a conversation about. So which questions do you ask? How do you formulate a question that would be better? it's really down to the nitty gritty. And I have to say, it's not just those conversations. Sometimes it's also just good to reflect on our practice and think about what's the what's the position that we should take in an organization and how do we move towards that position?

So sometimes it's extremely practical Again, how do you prepare the specific meal versus, what kind of how do we develop taste? Good taste with our kids, like what are some strategies there? Does it help Daniele?

Daniele: Absolutely. And I feel there might be something like, in parent groups, where when parents meet and they say, Oh, are you at the phase where?

The kid is crying every night. Yeah. Oh, I feel you. I'm two years in, a little bit further, it passes. It's going to be okay. And I feel in such communities, they might also be that kind of aspect where you meet people who are in other stages, and you can relate and say, Hey, it's, that's just normal.

Sure. It hurts. I've been there. But hey, there is hope. And and I assume that part is maybe also

Marc: very important in that. It's so important. It's so important to know that you're not the only one dealing with this struggle that you're not. And especially if you're in house and the same goes for parenting is a good example.

I think if you're seeing everybody around you, who's happy and who's joyful and you're like, Oh man, I'm just so tired and everything. Like it's not working out the way it should, and work is giving me stress and I need to fix those five other issues. It's just comforting to know that other people are in the same boat.

So that mental aspect that togetherness, that's absolutely key.

The futures for Circle

Daniele: Absolutely. And so it's always a difficult question, answering questions about the future. I will not ask one question about the future, but one about possible futures. Where do you see this kind of How do you see the circle community going in the futures?

What could, like you're working on it. We also have a few conversations about that already had that in private, but do you see like places where it's cool to go? Because now you have a bunch of people who are very smart who are sharing knowledge. What will you do with that?

Do you go more into the kind of emotional support structure? Will it be something which is. More this closed group where you have a small community. Do you see it to grow maybe outside of of in house? Do you have intuitions

Marc: about that? So this specific community, which I more recently tend to define as a tribe.

I think there are differences between communities and tribes and this feels to me more like a tribe, but one futures that is possible for these types of communities is I think being agenda setting for the field that they are in. So I think. We now have a already large enough group where that can create momentum, that can can start advocating for certain things inside our community.

So I can imagine that publications will come out, that standards will come out, that guides will come out, that. Raise the bar for the entire community. And I would love to see that. And I'm also aware that I'm just a facilitator in this entire, I'm just an enabler in this entire spectrum. It's really up to the community, what they want to do and how they want to position themselves.

If the community wants to stay. And just have interesting conversations with each other and not have an outside influence. Who am I to argue with that? But I feel that there's potential and that things will emerge. I would be really surprised if nothing happens when you put somewhere between 50 and 150 smart people together in a room.

There's just going to be energy that. The things will come out. I would be really surprised if they don't.

Daniele: And your role here is very interesting. You answered the question, how do you present yourself in birthday parties by saying I'm a YouTube guy, and I think that's a key in in, in this tribe, because for me, you're son of a pastor, so I use sometimes terms that are a bit fancy but you have a bit of this shaman vibe, where you're not the hunter, you're not the guy going to do the hunting, but you provide.

some facilitation for the hunters, in that tribe, if we can say it like that. And as you're not the hunter yourself, you have a bit of a different role, which I think is quite key in that type of community, because you're not working in house in a huge a company. As you said, you can be there for the community in terms of saying, Hey, what, where do you want it to go guys?

And I'm here just basically to, to facilitate it, but and I don't have the knowledge, which is also a very key and interesting thing in the way you're working with this community, I feel.

Marc: I'm hoping. That this model will eventually prove to be so quote unquote successful. And I think this is a different approach towards communities than we've seen recently.

Like I'm not stating here that I'm inventing something new. Communities have been here since mankind, so it's nothing new, but I think in our digital space, because we run fully digital, this type of community I haven't seen a lot of good examples. Unfortunately, many communities that start out with good intentions online die, eventually lose relevance or people burn out, the people who host and run them.

I think this has the potential to be a different model and a model that allows itself to get replicated amongst like any profession, like again, HR professionals or barbers or psychology, whatever, like any kind of professional. I think would benefit from having this kind of tribe community.

What's the difference between a tribe and a community?

Daniele: That's going to be a very egoistic question, but what's the difference between a community and a tribe for you? Because I'm quite interested in that. I've been helping to run the service design network, Switzerland which is working in some ways and still finding its shape. And I'm quite interested, how do you think in.

And the difference of what is a community, what is a tribe, and what makes a tribe function, thrive.

Marc: You should have prepared me for this question. I definitely have some thoughts on this. A few things that come to mind. One, the difference is closeness. So I think closeness is a very important ingredient.

And with that, how strong or weak are the ties between the members in a tribe? You have pretty strong ties between the people. There is a very strong social fabric, relational fabric to a tribe. People know each other. They trust each other. I think the level of trust in a tribe is Bigger than in a community.

We should also define community if we are starting to define tribe. But and a tribe is literally in numbers and my perspective, it's smaller. And it's small enough. I was thinking this morning about this, just your street, your neighbors, like that, or the people you would invite to a dinner party, like that kind of size, and then maybe your neighborhood.

Like first 25 people, and then the outer circle would be 150. So yeah, closeness, relationships, social fabric the fact that it's smaller, tighter, smaller, more intimate, more trust. The fact that a tribe is also often more exclusive compared to a community. A tribe has, like not everybody is part of a tribe and that's.

Again, that contributes to how uh, a sense of belonging.

Daniele: And it's quite interesting because you can join a community, but you might not be able to join a tribe, which is quite interesting.

Marc: You are the tribe, right? You join a community and you are the tribe. I don't know. We're getting philosophical here, but I do that's the thing we're trying to actively design for.

I don't think you can say that you can design air tribe, but I think you can create the environment and and the conditions in which hopefully these relationships emerge.

Chapter critic

Daniele: As you said, we've been very philosophical and now we will go do a return to her earth. Quite quite quick and and back into the nitty gritty.

I shared with you in advance one of the chapters of the book, which is the smallest chapter, which has two principles. So a very quick read. And so I'm I'm quite interested to see how our conversation will go. You got the chapter, How can you help people to not break shit? And yeah, what are your reactions after reading that?

Tiny chapter,

The white hat service hacker

Marc: my first reaction was if it can be broken, let's break it. So that was my first intention. Instead of trying to design for how things can be broken, what can we learn if we invite people to intentionally break it? And I was thinking in, uh, software practices, there are a lot of uh, Stimuli and a lot of triggers for people to actually find holes and to break a service under certain conditions, but just to learn from that and service hacks.

That sounds interesting. Can we hack a service to find smarter and better ways to do things? Yeah. So I have a lot more than yellow. But I'll take a pause for you to

Daniele: to comment here. So having a wide tag A white hat hacker, but for services, where we say in the hacker community, we have the black hats, the white hats are the hackers who do it for good, like poking at at internet services, at software to see what are the holes and then revealing them in a good and positive way to say, Hey, there we could improve something.

So this idea, does it go in that direction?

Marc: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

Daniele: absolutely. And what else did you think

Marc: about that?

Remove what breaks

Marc: Yeah. Something that's linking to this let's, let's break it. But then the other question and I'm blanking on the name here, but what if there was nothing to break? So instead of slapping a logo or a On something that be careful.

This is fragile. Can we actually dissolve the program? Arash help me out with a name, Daniele. Arash sorry, man.

Daniele: Antifragile. Yeah. Misidea.

Marc: What if there was nothing to break? How can we eliminate the element that can break? I think that's an interesting design

Daniele: opportunity, right? So instead of saying we have to spot what, what could break in order to find ways that it doesn't break instead of saying, Oh, let's make it strong enough and resilient enough that when there is pressure added to it, it doesn't break, but it makes it even better.

Marc: I would go even a step further. Okay, so what if the element that can break is just removed from the system?

Daniele: And so basically, how would you do that? Is it like having someone external coming? And watching and finding all the elements that break and then thinking, okay, how can we remove that? How can we remove that element so that. Breaking point doesn't happen.

Marc: I don't think you even need to have somebody observing.

If things break, you'll know, like if things break, usually that rises through the system quite quickly.

Daniele: Yeah, it's a very interesting point, to say. If it breaks, it's a, it's an interesting signal that you might be able to remove something instead of saying, Hey, you have to fix it.

So it's like a, before you fix it, think, could I remove it? Is there something we could do just. To remove that problem

Marc: completely. Exactly, yeah, exactly. And that might not always be the case. But at least it's going to give you an interesting problem statement to, to reframe.

Daniele: Yeah. Yeah, because that's often. One of the things that I noticed, it's a how as a culture, we're very much into problem solving, which means we get a problem. We want to solve it directly. And often we have them to have sentences that help us to we have the, this five why's to say, Hey, don't solve that problem.

Solve the real problem. That's one. Another one is. to say maybe you the problem doesn't need to be solved because sometimes problems are good for people's growth and they have to go through the pain they have to go through these bad experiences and so they have to break shit because that's part of the process and sometimes you know we can just remove it and then There is no breaking point and sometimes we just need a bandaid and it's okay to add a bandaid on it.

Find better users

Marc: I was related to this. I was also thinking, how can we, and this is a solution, but it's an alternative solution to the question. How can we make sure that users do not break shit? How can we find better users?

Daniele: There is another principle that I named like that, which is, which goes a bit in that direction, which is, the customer's king, but you get to choose your king, which is exactly that. It's if they break it, maybe change customers,

Marc: Absolutely. And this might sound funny or weird, but this is common practice in a lot of industries.

It's you have certificates, you have exams, you have standards, not everybody can work with you. So if you're seeing that your customers don't know what they are doing, maybe you should have a higher bar for being able to engage with your company. And how do you do that in practice? In exam? There is a reason why we have a driver license, right?

Yeah, so higher prices, this kind of stuff,

Daniele: where I'm making it more difficult so that you just attract the ones That's either are really able or really motivated to, to use the service.

Marc: Yeah. And I don't think money is per se the the driver. If it, if that depends on why things are breaking, if it's a lack of knowledge or it's it's if it's vandalism, then you just need to call the police.

Then or remove solve it in a different way. But I. In this chapter, there was an example of VanMoof, the Dutch bicycle company who went bankrupt, by the way and they were shipping their bicycles with a TV as the label on the box so that the carriers would be more careful with the boxes and have less breakage.

Like from a VanMoof standpoint, you could also say, okay, if our existing carriers are so sloppy with our products. We're going to change carrier and we're going to certify a specific carrier. Now, that goes into all other challenges like pricing and stuff like that, but that's not the question we're addressing right now.

We're addressing like, how do you get better users? Maybe like

Daniele: that. Yeah. Which then goes also into how do you get better users, but how do you get better partners too? As you just said. Yeah.

Make it harder to become a customer

Marc: I don't know as I'm not a customer, but I think I've heard stories that there are specific types of Ferraris, the car, which you can only buy if you have a purchase history of Ferraris before.

So they're not going to give you the keys to their latest model if you are a brand new customer. Yeah, you have to earn the right to actually be their customer, right? So how do you make sure that you get people who will be careful with the stuff that you create, have a track record, give them something have them prove their value to you.

Daniele: Which is a very interesting shift in the relationship, it's there is this this Religious organization in Switzerland, which is quite funny because many people see it as a backwards thinking organization, it's like they have their Sunday service is in Latin, it's like very old school, but they're thriving, because it's so hard to get there.

Just also just, hearing a two hour service in Latin, you have to be really into it. And their community is thriving. But when you see the average Christian communities in Switzerland, they're all having a hard time, to keep people in. And they are in the opposite situation where they say, no, we don't want people.

We don't want more people and if you want to join you have to prove your worth because this is a tough community you know it's we have a high standard for the people we wanted here so this change is quite interesting to say hey sometimes just Raising the bar is definitely something that, that we can do, which might sound very counterintuitive when as service designers, we want to be there for everyone, we have this very humanistic things, but sometimes realizing that it's maybe better to serve a few very well, and be very much in a tribe relationship as you said before and then we can help those very deeply and maybe we have a bit less people.

But at least we know that those that are with us, they are really part of the tribe and it's not a loose community.

Marc: As with all the answers that go in design, it depends on so many things, but it's yeah, it's good to explore these these ideas.

Daniele: Absolutely. And you've been also one person with whom I spoke a lot about these principles, the books in the last edition, you wrote the foreword.

What's one thing that you hate either in this specific chapter on this book or in the series in general?

Marc: I'm not that kind of person.

I'm quite optimistic and I don't I don't hate a lot of stuff. I see opportunities, if anything that's not a real good question for me to answer but that's an unsatisfying question. Answer to your question. So I'll give you something to chew up on and then it's up to you to do something with it.

Tricks have an expiration date

Marc: When I was looking at this chapter, the only question Marc that went through my head was the tricks that, yeah, the tricks that are described on how to make sure that, or how to help that people don't break your shit. The question was in my mind: How long do these tricks actually work?

They might work for the initial phase. Like the box with the TV on it. That's great. That will save you first six months, maybe 12 months, if you're lucky, and then it will get out, it will get on LinkedIn, whatever news, and then you have to find a new trick. So it's yeah I'm. I'm interested in tricks.

Tricks are interesting, but the longevity of these tricks might wear off pretty

Daniele: soon. So that being aware that tricks have a bit of an expiration date and that either it's the cat and mouse game where it's obviously they are good, but it means that you have to be very aware and you have to update constantly.

And sometimes sometimes it's good. Sometimes if you're willing to do, to play the cat and mouse game, that's good. And sometimes you say, yeah, I don't want to play the cat and mouse game. So I will not rely on tricks, but rather on a deep redesign. So that's basically what you're saying, if I'm

Marc: getting you right.

Yeah, that was the only thing going through my mind here. Yeah.

Daniele: Yeah, I think definitely. It's a, it's an element that people should be aware of whenever you. You use simple tips there is a big value of it, which is, tomorrow you have something, which is cool, but they have an expiration date, and sometimes quick things are good.

But for a certain time, and then you have to go deeper in the root causes. Absolutely.

Service Design Principles are a first aid kit

Marc: It's a band. And these are band aids and band aids have a very good use. Like they can be important. What Yeah, a very specific one and they can be very important and very useful in those specific situations.

But yeah it's not a structural solution to certain issues.

Daniele: So in, in some way we could say, so at least that's the image that I'm getting is, these books in this series are, your first aid kit. It's first aid kit, bandages, stuff like that, it, and it helps you just to get moving back to a place of safety.

Sometimes it's just home and it's enough. And sometimes it helps you just to go. go back to a hospital or to a doctor who then will take a much deeper look. And then for that, this deeper look are other types of books or other types of communities, other types of resources, which then people can use.

But I like this. This metaphor saying, that the first aid kit is not made to fix a broken leg. It's made just to let you walk back up to the hospital. And that's already pretty good, but it's not more than that.

Marc: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. It's a good analogy. Yeah.

How to become a better service design professional

Daniele: And so thinking about.

How about this? So we have this first aid kit which might be that this book is part of that. What are resources which go further than the first aid kit, or things that you recommend for people where you say, Hey, these are good tricks, good principles, good tiny ideas that will get you.

Moving, but once you're there, that's the next step that you should take. What would you recommend to people?

Marc: Would I recommend to people who want to take the next step? I think it's it's important that you know the basic language. So I'm just going to throw it out there, but just read the five most popular books on service design and then stop reading about service design. Read those five books and you're done and then start diving into other things outside of service design.

The step after having read those books and maybe doing a few courses. I don't think there's anything better than to having conversations with other professionals. I think that's the next level of, that, that's where you unlock the next level of maturity. Because that The devil is in the details and the details are not the details, they are the thing that makes the difference and you only get the details by learning from lived experiences, from practical wisdom, from people who have been there, have done that failed, tried Try to implement the theories and then have fallen off a cliff.

So step one, get yourself familiar with the basic vocabulary. Step two, have conversations with people who are going through the same journey as you are. Join a community, join a tribe.

Don't get lost in the service design books

Daniele: And it's a warning also in some way to to not get stuck in the first part, which is I love the fact that you're saying five books.

It's of a good good, simple way of thinking about it. A good rule of thumb of thinking, Hey don't read every fucking book about it. You will you will not get more of it. It's like with productivity books or or mental health stuff.

Once you've read the five. Key ones, then all the others build on that and add maybe one little detail, but once you have that, it's okay. Don't lose yourself in it, which is a very interesting way to to just make people free also of that, maybe fear of missing out, content from books and say, Hey, it's okay, pick your five ones and maybe then, in 10 years.

Pick five more and that's okay.

Marc: I 100 percent agree. Stop reading about the subject matter that you're active in. Unless you want to be a professor or you want to be a researcher, which is also fine, but if you're a practitioner, like pretty much, it's going to be more helpful for you to broaden your perspective than to deepen your perspective.

Good questions to ask to learn from another Service Design professional

Daniele: And so what's a good question to ask? So for example, someone who might be a young service design professional. And how does he unlock, this conversation? How does he get to a place where he knows, ah, okay, this this is a good question to ask to, to get to this nitty gritty details, these elements.

Do you have any tips for people who are not that much into it yet? Who don't they read the books and they have a bit of a struggle transitioning from books. To the chat with people getting in a tribe, how do you do that transition?

Marc: The first before you get in a tribe, after reading the books, you have to do the work. So go do the work, right? It doesn't help when you read about How to ride a bicycle or how to swim. You actually have to go into the swimming pool and start swimming. You have to ride the bike and you have to get some practice in your system.

You have to put in the hours because then you'll have tangible material to discuss with others. And when you have those discussions, one of the best questions you can ask is. What's the thing you wish somebody would have told you before you started working in this company? Before you became a service design professional?

Before you, like, try to get people to think about their most important lesson? And extract that.

Daniele: In that way, there is one question that I kind of love to ask these days to, to, to other friends, is the, in the last six months, what's a new thing that you learned? Where you will say to your past self, man, just do that.

It's going to make your life easier. And then not even, making it specific to service design, but just like general, but life and and and and and job related which means that sometimes people come up with stuff where they say, Oh, I changed the way I, When I ask this question, now I use that word and it changes the conversation.

It's okay, and that's the thing that I just started to do since six months. It's and it really works. And it's and these questions based on practice it's like in surveys where we say in the last year, so we really go into what do you really do and not what do you think about it?

Marc: That's Practical wisdom. Yeah, practical wisdom.

Learning has a pulse

Daniele: Absolutely. And so maybe we can, I think it could be interesting for maybe the younger generation coming in, that we mentioned a few of these. Places where people can get these advice so if they are maybe so obviously if you're in a big company, you might already have a bit of that support structure, which is cool.

There is Circle, obviously. Are there other ones that we should mention, places where people can find this kind of tribes, communities, places to, to exchange and learn?

Marc: I'm sure you have some examples. I don't think I have practical names but I would encourage if you start looking for something like this, I would lean towards places where there is less frequent, but more in depth.

I would try to avoid things like Slack channels or basically anywhere there, where there's probably many too many conversations, or how do I express this better, where there's an ongoing communication stream. I would prefer to be in a place where I know I have to go in, like for church, I have to go in for Sunday, sit there for two hours.

And then I'm not going to have to check my phone every five minutes and see that 99 percent of the messages that have come by aren't relevant to the topic I'm interested in. This can be online. There are places, like a webinar is probably a better place to be than a Slack channel to be honest.

And you can also find them offline. Even better, go hang out with people in a bar, even if it's just three people who have the same mindset, like you don't need a hundred, like with just three people, you would have very interesting conversations most likely.

Daniele: Absolutely. This also this, the fact that it's not a Slack thing or a forum or something like that, also lowers the mental burden because you're not in this.

Shit, I should check it every day because if not, I'm not learning. And if you have an appointment, where you say there is a day to where I go either online or physical or whatever. And until then, I'm just doing my work and I can focus on doing my work. And once I'm there, then I can go back in a mode, which is reflection and learning.

But we're splitting it and therefore there is not this. Okay, I'm doing but at the same time I should, reflect and I should learn and but now I have this deadline so I'm learning but at the same time there's this very interesting conversation and so therefore it gives a bit of a calmer practice where you say, hey, focus on your work.

And when you go to the webinar, to the coaching, to the conversation in a bar, close your phone. Airplane mode, you're fully there. And then once you're out, you're fully out until the

Marc: next time. Exactly. In in the circle I talk about, we have a heartbeat, we have a rhythm to our community.

Our community has it has a heartbeat and it's not every day. It's not every five minutes is once every two weeks beats and that's enough to stay alive. That's it's not it's more than enough to stay alive. It's the way that we actually. are in the world.

Ask your network who can answer that question

Daniele: Absolutely. Maybe one tip that that I've have experienced in that type of exchange that is quite lovely today is, based on practice, as you said, you need to have the practice, what questions you want to ask, what problems that you want to get advice on.

And once you have the practice, there is one thing which works quite well is Noticing, oh, I have a problem here, and then saying to someone who is knowledgeable, who has a good network, saying, I have this problem, who's a good person that I could offer a coffee and have a conversation about this?

And then usually, people say, Oh, you definitely should talk to X for that. And then you find that person say, Hey, could I have a coffee with you? Usually people are very down to it. And then you get very specific and very deep, as you said, in that conversation. So that's one very simple thing.

There is the committees, the webinars, the stuff, obviously. But that's also one thing that can be very strong. And and maybe I think that's one thing that, that we often miss is, we don't see the value. We sometimes forget that people are doing service design work without knowing that it has that name, especially in big organizations.

And, being able to just go to a colleague in another department and say, Hey, what did you learn in the last six months? Or what's the one thing that you would have loved to know about that company and on how the politics work here that makes life easier. That's definitely, that's those type of questions we have.

The hack to make time to meet other Service Design professionals

Marc: I am going to add to what you just said about going to that colleague. What I'm seeing is that, especially when you're a professional working uh, whether it's in an agency or a big company, you're always going to have stuff to do. You're always going to have deadlines, projects, things that need to get done.

And most of the time. If not always, you're being very goal oriented, you're working towards something very specific. You rarely take the time to actually explore and have those open conversations with others to learn. And this is where I think something like a community comes in. And a community that has a specific cadence or events because those things can be put in your agenda as a way to explore, to zoom out.

I've seen that if you don't put these things in your agenda, then you're going to stay very goal oriented and you will not make the time to go outside of the things that you need. It's going to be very transactional and help me solve this specific challenge while I'm here. Usually growth at a certain part in your career lies outside of the things that you know today, you're going to connect the dots. And I mentioned serendipitous learning. Learn about things that you didn't even know you wanted to learn about. You wouldn't even consider asking a question that you didn't even know was relevant. And the only way to figure out what those questions are is to be amongst people who are smart.

Smart, intelligent, humble, and have interesting conversations. And then just listen and be curious and making the time for that, and that doubles my whole argument, making the time for that is hard if you don't have an external excuse. Does it make sense, Daniele?

Daniele: Yeah, it's easier to have a thing that you're part of where there is this positive social pressure that says, Hey, we meet every two weeks.

And then you can just say, okay, I'm going to add every meeting in my agenda. And if there is no family party, I'm going to join. So that's like a rule that you set, but I'm not the one having to think about Putting it in the calendar thinking about oh what we will talk about, how do we do the introductions, being part of a community that you have the, this kind of a luxury of not having to organize it, which is nice.

Marc: Not having to ask the question, not having to ask the question, just sit in, watch, learn, be curious. And, you'll be surprised how many things you can learn because you didn't even realize that you needed to ask some questions.

Daniele: Absolutely. And it's a thing that still, you can obviously organize it.

I have a good friend we work in the same organization and she is much more organized for that kind of stuff. And she said to me, Hey, we're going to meet once every two months. And so she sent me calendar invites for obviously it's automatic, for every two months. And basically what we do is she comes in and she says, Hey, what have you been doing these last two months?

And it's a very powerful questions for people inside an organization, because it just gives you also a view of what another department is doing, and what are their struggles. And then it's Oh, you're working on that? I'm working on the same thing, but we don't speak about it and our bosses don't know that we should let them know and organize something here.

So that's also something to do, but obviously it's more work and you have to be a bit more organized to do that stuff. And it's a good compliment, obviously, but there is a lot of value to it. Yeah, obviously we are the. We are also preaching a little bit for our own churches and we, if we can say it, you with the circle me for the Service Design Network Switzerland, where we say, Hey, we're organizing it for you.

You can just come in. It's easy. But we, I think. Honestly, I believe that it's it's a good value, just to not have to organize it and just be able to chill, not organize, but still get the reflection time and still get this this learning time. Definitely.

Marc: Yeah. I would agree.

Daniele: Yeah. So we've been a few places now, and I know that you are someone who likes to be prepared, is there something that you had in your mental notes that you thought, Oh that's something that I'd like to speak about, that I'd like to explore, or did we cover already a good range for

Marc: you?

Reflection question: what can we break in a service?

Marc: We, there is one thing and we do not have to go into detail, but maybe this is something to think about for the audience is going back to the example of breaking things. The examples in the book are primarily focused on breaking physical stuff. Now when we deal with services, what is there to break or what can what are the, I don't know, elements.

Is it your attention? Is it time? Is it your emotion? Is it something else? Can, what can break in a service?

Daniele: That's a good question. And I'd love to, to keep it as a reflection question for for the people listening to us. I think that's a, could be a a very good prompt in a daily journal. What's, what are the things? That could break. Definitely a very good question. Thanks so much, Marc.

Marc's call to action

Daniele: Before we come to a close you shared a lot today with with the community. And as it's it's common practice, we give we give, we get back and there is always this motion. Is there a call to action that you have for the community, something that you'd like?

To make people aware of something that you'd like to shine a light on the

Marc: stage is yours. Yeah. I'm going to connect with our story so far, and I'm going to say that if you are an in house service design professional, and you would like to have a team of service design superheroes around you that can inspire you, that can motivate you, that can help you win the battle against organizational.

Inertia and again, status quo, then you're very welcome to have a look at the Circle community and see if that's something that you'd be interested in joining. So we have a lovely group of people, I think right now over 15. 16 countries represented, so pretty diverse across all time zones. And yeah, check it out.

Daniele: Awesome. So check out Circle, definitely one thing to, and I'm excited to see how many people will become part of the tribe.

Marc: Let's hope not too many.

Daniele: Absolutely. But that's a good thing. I know that you will be, you will be strong enough to limit the amount of people that joins. Build your case also, I think there is

Marc: an applications part going in.

There is an there's absolutely application process. And we have a max number of people we let in the tribe each month. Yeah, like you said it's not easy to get in, but Once you're in you know that the people who are next to you are also pretty committed to being part

Daniele: of this.

Closing words

Daniele: Marc, it's been a great pleasure to see you once again. And thank you so much for the time you invested in preparing for the time you spent now with me, and also just for basically everything you do for. This little community of ours it's something that I deeply appreciate and yeah, thanks so much mate.

Marc: I appreciate the gratitude Daniele and thanks for the invitation to be part of this journey. Thanks. Bye bye.

Daniele: See ya.

Linn Vizard is a Service Design lover and the founder of Made Manifest.

Linn is also a Service Design educator through her newsletter “Ask a Service Designer” (where she answers common questions people have about Service Design) and her writing in other publications like Usability Matters, (for example about Service Design heuristics) or the Adobe Blog (for example about the evolution of the designer role)

Before that, Linn was a Director for Design Strategy at Bridgeable, one of the biggest Service Design consultancies in Canada, and held multiple roles both in UX and Service Design.

With Linn, we discuss the chapter “How Can You Reassure People Before They Join?”

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• What are practical tips to implement Service Design ideas

• Why answering Service Design questions is a great reflection practice for any Service Design professional

• How to use comparison as a tool to reassure people about your service or product?

• Why you should not compare your service only with direct competitors but also with wider alternatives?

• Why showing the end at the start can reassure people?

We also do a deep dive into the importance of choosing the right level of principles for your context, how to mix them and how to stay on a healthy diet when you consume such Service Design Principles.

• Book: Good Services by Loue Downe

• Book: Ends by Joe Macleod

• Blog article: Service Design Heuristics by Nick Crampton and Linn Wizard

• Models: Jobs To Be Done (Video, Article)

• Newsletter: Ask a Service Designer

Made with AI

This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Introduction

How can you reassure people before they join your service or product? That's what we discuss with Linn Vizard during this conversation for my international book tour. Lynn is a Service Design lover, and the founder of Made Manifest, an independent Service Design consultancy in Canada.

She's a Service Design educator through her newsletter, Ask as service designer, where she answers common questions people have about Service Design.

She also writes in other publications like Usability Matters or the Adobe blog.

In this one hour conversation, we cover a lot of ground. We explore topics like.

What are practical tips to implement Service Design ideas?

Why answering Service Design questions is a great reflection practice for any Service Design professional?

How to use comparison as a tool to reassure people about your service or product?

Why you should not compare your service only with direct competitors. But also with wider alternatives?

Why showing the end at the start can reassure people?

We also do a deep dive into the importance of choosing the right level of principles for your context, how to mix them together and how to stay in a healthy diet when you consume such Service Design Principles.

Thank you so much to Lynn for this lovely conversation.

Daniele: Hello, Lynn!

It's such a pleasure to meet you, finally.

Linn: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited and yeah, excited to get to know you a bit more, too.

Daniele: Super excited to get the chance. to Meet you live, and also to to know a lot more not only about you, but your way of thinking, your way of working, and also, your way of criticizing stuff. Let me ask you,

Meet Linn

Daniele: when you arrive in a birthday party how do you present yourself to new people?

Linn: Usually I'm just like, Hi, I'm Lynn. Maybe compliment something they're wearing or something I find interesting. I assume the subtext here is if they start asking, what do you do? And I was laughing, I was listening to some of your other episodes, like with Ben Reason. So mostly anyway, I just say, oh, I run my own small business a small consulting business.

And I leave it at that, actually.

Daniele: The classic.

Linn: I love it. Yeah. I'm like, if I say management consultant or consulting, then people will hopefully leave me alone. They won't want to know more, right? They're just like, oh, okay.

Daniele: So you're a part of the scary one. Yeah.

Linn: Cause I, I find, like you, like many other folks you've chatted to have said, if you say design, then inevitably you get, oh, fashion, interiors.

And then I'm like, no, not really. I, we help companies make their services better using design. I've tried a lot of different things out, but I haven't really Nailed the one that sort of feels best. I do notice there's a lot more literacy around digital and UX. And so sometimes people can relate to that.

But then I get frustrated because I'm like, but we don't just design apps and websites. Can't win.

What's Made Manifest?

Daniele: Okay. And so you say, okay, I'm this consultant of a small business. What's the business? What do you do in that small consultancy?

Linn: Yeah, so I might say something like we try to make services better, so that could look like the experience of buying a luxury jewelry gift or going to City Hall to pay your taxes.

It could be what it's like to go into a lab, to have a blood test, and those are all examples of projects that we've worked on. And so those are the types of things we try to help companies and organizations do, and we really do it by talking to people, understanding their lived experience and yeah, suggesting ways we could maybe improve.

So that's the, my attempt at a plain language explanation, right?

Implementing Service Design

Daniele: Awesome. And, we are part of this kind of a network of very nerdy people. When we get into the nerdy stuff, what's like the topics that you get really excited about at the moment when it comes to service design?

Linn: Yeah I love that question and I 100 percent relate to being a nerd and love having found a career and a practice and a community of people who are also really nerdy and just like to get into the details of things and constantly learn and but to answer your question, the stuff I'm really curious about and have been for a while is around how do you use Service Design to actually make changes, right?

To actually improve a service and to deliver real world change to a service and I think where that kind of leads to or goes is working with all of that, Dan Hill calls it dark matter, but how do you work with people and power structures and organizational culture? How do you think about your stakeholders?

Stakeholdering and stakeholder relationships how do you think about how change happens on a project, in a team and all that stuff is really hard, but those are the things I'm really learning about and experimenting with and trying to explore in the projects and work because I think as designers we want to make stuff happen.

Fundamentally, we're not here to just think or make diagrams, like we want to build things in the world. And how do you do that with something as complex and interconnected and at scale as a service?

Daniele: It's it's the curse of the consultancy sometimes, where just in the name, it's Oh, you're consultants.

We come to you, you get, you give us ideas and concept processes, stuff. And then we do it. It's okay, because we're just consulting you. You don't do it. It's okay. So even the name is is giving us, putting us in a, not in the place of the

Linn: implementer. Yes. I think that's such a good reflection, right?

What's the expectation or mental model that sets for a client, right? You work with many. Client teams and their expectation is you're going to give me a PowerPoint and recommendations. I'm like, no more PowerPoint, no more recommendations in my dream world. But so you're right.

It's, what's that dynamic? And yet I was actually reflecting on this because the most recent newsletter that went out was about different career. Options or paths in service design. And I've actually stayed, agency side or consulting side my whole career, because I'm addicted to the variety and the relationship building and getting to see behind the curtain in all of these different, organizations and teams and services.

And then I'm always battling with Okay how do you balance that with doing projects that feel really satisfying where, real change happens where you're involved in delivery and execution? Yeah,

Daniele: I'm curious because you're saying you're exploring that. What's the things that you learned in the six last months, where you said you had an epiphany where you said, okay, that's how I can make change happen.

For example I realized, lately that one question that I stopped to ask is, who's the person deciding? Because usually when I ask that, people then answer me, oh, obviously it's me, because you're asking them, do you have power?

And obviously they'll answer you, I have power. But when you, and so suddenly I have noticed that when I ask the question. whO can block it? And then it changes completely the conversation because then it's Oh, Bob from marketing? He's a dick, but he's super powerful because he can speak in the ears of the CEO.

It's okay, now we know where the power is, and I'm interested for this kind of stuff where, the simple stuff where you say, This has changed something in my way of thinking, in my way of working, when it comes to implementation.

Linn: I love that example. What a powerful reframe.

I'm going to steal that. I think maybe two thoughts that come to mind off the top. One is,

Implementation tip: Readjust your expectation

Linn: readjust your expectations. I feel like this is a lesson that I learn over and over in my career and in my work. And it's great to be optimistic and to have big vision and to see the ways in which things could be better.

You mentioned in the intro about my way of critiquing and that's awesome. And I think it's important to balance that with understanding that we're You know, we're one part of a bigger system and so really taking a step back to think about what success looks like and adjust your expectations and think about, maybe the win on this project isn't some massive change to the service, but the win is moments like when someone on the team you've been working with, and this happened in a project I worked on, says, I'm never going Designing anything again without testing it with the people who use it, right?

That's a win! sO that's one, adjust your expectations. And then two, I think, is:

Implementation tip: Pay attention to relationships

Linn: Pay attention to relationships, which is exactly what you were talking about, right? And

Daniele: how do you do that?

Linn: Yeah, so a couple different things. One technique that I really is, of course, there is stakeholder interviewing.

Very classic, right? But really thinking about the intent of that interview. Is it about information gathering, like you need to actually understand procedurally what's happening in a service so you can build the blueprint, for example? Is it about building buy in and understanding people's goals?

Or is it about Relationship building and just really meeting another person as they are as a human and understanding a little bit of where they're coming from. And of course it doesn't have to be either or. You can try to blend these, but I do find that the more attention you pay to the relationship building that can really pay off.

And so asking questions. And then there's one of my favorites is how did you come to this work? Because what that does is it gives people a moment to reflect on their path and connect back to perhaps an intention that brought them to where they are today, which can be quite powerful.

And it also helps you understand some of that kind of backstory and history. So that's a really nice one. Where are things most stuck? Tell me a story about that. So simple kind of reframes that create a little bit more open and reflective space to build a relationship in something like a stakeholder interview.

Daniele: And these are very powerful questions because You're managing two things, with one stone. I think there is a, an expression like that, killing two birds with one stone, not the most poetic thing, but but there is one thing which I find very powerful in what you say, which is, asking people from why they are here in this project, in this job.

It's very interesting because it's using the lens of professionalism, why are you here in this job, but then obviously people will reveal a lot about their life story, which often you, I don't know how it's in Canada, but in Switzerland, You need a bit of time before you can get into the more emotional stuff, the more personal stuff.

And so it's like a way to ask a personal question but disguised as a professional one, which I very

The power of opening rounds to create relationships

Linn: Yes, and it reminds me, Daniele, something else that we do and that my awesome team is great at facilitating is one of our kind of non negotiables even for just a regular, let's say, status, like a project status type meeting that we do weekly with a client we always incorporate an opening round this is this idea that you're going to have much more effective meetings and more balanced if we hear from everyone's voice at the start this is, We'll bring a prompt question.

So what did we do yesterday? We did your, what's your mundane superpower? Are you really great at packing or finding things that your family have lost? And we had one a couple of weeks ago around what would you like to win a lifetime supply of? And these are low stakes questions.

And then we all take turns to give an answer and nominate. the next person. And it can seem, especially in more kind of bureaucratic cultures, it can seem a bit weird. But there is actually evidence that says, when you build this practice and do this, you have more effective, efficient and productive meetings and also more balanced input when you create a moment at the start to hear from everyone.

And what it also does is it opens up the possibility for some human connections. So we found out with some clients, things we had in common, like two of us And I think that's actually part of our jobs as service designers and designers is to come in and model a slightly strange way of being.

You find out these little things you have in common and it starts to humanize, but to your point, you are also treading this balance of the more professional culture where this can seem like a kind of weird way of being. And I think that's actually part of our jobs as service designers and designers is to come in and model a slightly strange way of being.

And be okay with people going, I don't know about this, but okay, maybe I'll play along and see .

Daniele: It's being a bit of this hybrid worker, like not totally the crazy consultant, who comes and people say, oh, I'm scared. This is bullshit. . But very creative.

And this is a colleague. And, we do stuff as we always do. And it's like being in this hybrid where we can take stuff which is a bit crazy, making people a little bit uncomfortable, but at the same time having this comfort zone where people can come back to you and say, okay oh, you understand me.

You're part of this. Oh, you also just live with spreadsheets and you hate it, but have to live with it. It's okay. Yeah it's interesting to be in that kind of middle zone where it's not. Full crazy consultant and not full colleague who is just lost in the daily work.

Linn: Yeah. And it's tricky, right?

Cause you want to strike that balance. And especially I think at the start of projects, when you are building those relationships, it can be hard to find where is that sweet spot. And as you're building trust and understanding and it can feel awkward, it can create friction. You don't want to do something that.

is so far out of left field that it really undermines the credibility. And people are like, I don't know about this, why did we pick these people? Or, and right. So going, it goes back to what we were saying, it's like, how do you tend to those relationships, even in structures that aren't always set up, I think, to really create space for that or enable that.

And it's tricky, right? It's not always easy. It's not always like smooth. But you got it. I think our job is to keep trying and to keep. Offering the invitation and not expecting people to change their way of being completely, and recognizing that they're part of an organizational culture and a way of doing things, and they have very real constraints and incentives that we don't understand but still oh here's a little invitation, here's a, We'll create a space to maybe try something slightly different.

The Ask a Service Designer Newsletter

Daniele: And I'm curious about one thing that you didn't mention in your birthday party presentation or just the stuff that you do with your clients when you introduce yourself. There is one part that is missing, I think. Obviously, there are more than one, but there is one that I'm very interested in, which is You are a very good service design educator because in your writing, especially, the work you do with your newsletter, but you have also writing in crazy places.

I just saw that you've wrote for the Adobe blog, for years. I saw that it was like, okay, that's that's something I didn't know. But I'm curious, what's your approach? On on how you teach service design or share your practice with the community. Could you share a bit more because I think, I'm not the only nerd watching this.

There are many people saying, Oh, she has a newsletter. I want to know more. What's the kind of stuff that you write, that you publish that people can. Can, take a look at and say, Ooh, now I'm getting a direct access to her brain.

Linn: Ah, thanks, Daniele. I appreciate that. Yeah. It's funny because it's almost such a reflexive or automatic thing that I don't think about it.

It's true because I really love, sharing and reflecting and being in dialogue with people about service design, about what we're learning, about how we could do things differently or better, about the experiments we're doing, about what we're inspired by. And so really the, writing and speaking has been an opportunity to do that and to share and hopefully You know, support and influence other people's practices and be in that dialogue together.

So the main sort of outlet for that at the moment is my newsletter, which is Ask a Service Designer, and it started as an experiment, as a prototype, where I thought, Oh, maybe it would be cool to have like a service design advice column. So I don't know if you have this in Switzerland, but this idea of an agony ant or like an

And the kind of idea was people could submit questions and then I would share some reflections and it's really grown and evolved. I will often write about topics that we're dealing with or problems that we're trying to solve. In our practice, and then I'll also invite folks, guest writers to contribute and write about their topics.

So we've covered so many different things, right? We talk about what are the outcomes of service design career paths, how do I identify good service design training, and then really trying to have it as a bit of a hub for interesting links to other work that's inspiring.

I actually wrote one a couple months ago that was, my favorite service design PhDs. And I read these PhD theses and then shared some of the learnings so that if you're not into reading PhDs, you don't have to. And things like sharing, jobs, local jobs and things like that. I think very similar, Daniele, to what I find so inspiring about you.

It's really trying to share back knowledge and create connection and opportunities for people to share and learn together, right?

Answering questions is learning

Daniele: Absolutely. We often say the telephone was invented at the same time by two people that never spoke together and they came up with the same idea. They never knew each other and just one was faster at filing the patents. And and it feels to me there is one thing which is quite similar with the newsletter you have, where I see that we are a few service designers trying to do that, having this kind of advice columns, or question and answer stuff.

And the kind of magic I find in that is, it's not only good, for giving back to the community, but whenever I answer one of these questions, that people send. Often I'm like, I never thought about that question. And it's what a good question or worse. It's what a weird question to have, and then you're trying to help the person. And so you get into it. It's okay, what could I say, which might be useful? And then suddenly by writing the answer and very humbly saying, I don't know shit about it, but if I had to do anything, I would do this. Then suddenly you get to a place where a few months later, you're faced with that part, that exact question yourself, and you already did all the work, reflection work, and you can just say, Oh, let's do it like that, and then people look at you and say, Oh, you're such a fast thinker.

It's no, I just answered a question for a friend, and now I reuse that answer.

Linn: Yeah. It's very cool. Yeah, it reminds me of that, isn't there some saying around the best way to learn something is to teach it? Because it absolutely forces you to formalize, like in a way, your thoughts and knowledge or experiments or things you tried, things that worked didn't work.

So I find it similar is a really nice, it's like a really nice way, I think, to synthesize your own practice and explore new things, right? And what I love too, is, My answer will be different to your answer, and there will be lots of perspectives and ways to look at something.

A reflection practice for service designers: answer questions.

Daniele: Yeah, and in some way, that's a bit of a call to action that I'd like to share with the community, sometimes people ask, yeah, What's a good practice, to stay on top in service design that you can do daily, some, a lot of service design work is just good old project management, where you call people you do, you, you answer emails, you prepare a presentation, this kind of stuff, you have to do that.

It's a part of any job today but then people ask, yeah, but how can I stay fresh in in in my practice? And I think having. An advice column, even if it's just internal within your company is a very good thing to have to say as a practice, to say, Hey, each month it's week, someone each, someone of our team answers a question, and he has to write it because writing is a very good way to force yourself to really think about stuff and then we share it to the company or things like that.

If we feel a bit more a bit more courageous, we can share it with the world. And, maybe you just keep it for yourself. But as, but I think this practice is a very good practice that I would highly recommend to basically anyone, if it's, if you're in house, if you're a consultancy, if you're a solo guy It's a very good practice just to, on days where you don't do any service design related shit, because it's just, doing your accounting or doing Excel and stuff, it gives you this, ah, at least I'm reflecting, at least I'm going forward.

Linn: Yeah, I think it's huge. I love that call to action and just the idea of a reflective practice, right? And that is really where we get to do a lot of the integrating. And so we try to be very You know, strict or diligent about things like retros, and at the end of projects, one of my team members, Michelle, introduced this idea of the project mid flight, where we do some reflection, and so what are those opportunities to do that reflection, whether it's, the advice column structure, like you suggested, which I love, or building in these retros or moments, and it can sometimes feel like, oh, we have to create space for this, it's another hour or 90 minutes, or, and, it doesn't even have to be that.

big of a container, but I think what I'm trying to express is sometimes it can feel like, oh, we don't have time for that, but actually the richness and the learning and how much it feeds your practice is, makes it so worthwhile to prioritize some kind of reflective habit, I think. Yeah.

Daniele: It's a, it's like the sleep for service designers, it's like nobody wants it in some strange way, if you have enough.

Then you have a good day. And you need these reflection spaces, which creates a very good transition. I'm very happy of how our brains work to that.

Chapter critic

Daniele: So we're speaking about reflection and I'd like to transition on like the reflections that you had because I shared with you a bit in advance a chapter of the next book I'm writing, which is Services and Principles.

Now it's 300, 1 to 400, so it's the first, the fourth one and you got the chapter, How can you reassure people before they join? And I'm very curious on your own reflection about that topic. And to start, is there One principle, one idea that you resonated with in that

Linn: chapter. I think there were several.

I really enjoyed my chapter a lot.

The good: approachable writing

Linn: And I think something that is so wonderful in your writing is that it is very It's really approachable and accessible and I love all of the everyday examples that you use to really bring it to life. So I think for me, it felt like there was this theme that I would bundle or roll up into the idea of, how do you set clear expectations before someone joins a service?

Show the before and after

Linn: And I love this idea of showing the before and after. I also loved the show me an example of what I'm getting into, so it reminded me of a few things I don't know if you have this again in Switzerland, but you know when people are in the grocery store with the like hairnet and they're giving you a sample, it reminds me of that, right?

How do you reduce the cost and risk? For someone to try something new and help them understand, hey here's what it might be like. So I like those two a lot. And the showing before and after reminded me a bit of I'm sure maybe you have HelloFresh as well, Mealkit I think it's a German company actually, and their tagline is Dinner Solved, and it made me think about how that tagline, even in those two words, there's a before and after, right?

Dinner solved. Before HelloFresh, the, the eternal question, what's for dinner? Oh my god. And I thought it just made me reflect a lot on how that's a really, the before and after is embodied in this tagline. And I thought it was very clever. It made me reflect on it in a kind of a new way that, ah, that's what they're doing.

Daniele: And so I'm curious, how do you do that? Because this, the, you said this kind of meta team that you see is setting the right expectations, because once we want to reassure people, it's often just to say, this is what's going to happen. Either it's it's going to be bad, just know it, or it's not going to be as bad, just chill.

How do you usually do that? In, in your own work with your clients or with end users, how did you have that? Do you have any tips or maybe examples of of smart ways of doing

Linn: it? Yeah. So I have a couple that came to mind and one was I was smiling because you mentioned in the chapter, newsletters that let you browse the archive.

And that was something, again, these ideas that are everywhere, right? That I had implemented some time ago as well to say Oh, before you ask someone to hand over your email give them an example. Let them in a low. Commitment Way, read some past editions. So that's a sort of, micro example.

How to reassure buyers: show how it compares

Linn: A project came to mind that was some, a couple years ago, and it was really around how do we help people understand what internet package is right for their needs. And so this is like, how do you reassure people before they sign up for this, can be expensive, recurring, bill for internet, which is the sort of, fundamental infrastructure for our life in the West and modern life.

How do you reassure them that they're making the right choice and they're getting something that's just the right amount for their needs. And so what we did on that project through, the typical process of research and so on, we eventually designed a sort of A tool that helped people to make a decision on which package would be right for them.

And so some of the things that were really important were, how do you do that in plain language, right? So instead of all the tech, it's this many gig or meg or whatever like up and down and all this stuff like people are like Oh, I don't really know what that means How do you talk to people in kind of terms that they understand like well?

Hey, do you do a lot of? live video game play do you do a lot of streaming? Do you work from home? So really connecting to the more, yeah, plain language use cases that people might be able to make comparisons through. And what was really, there was two things that were really interesting and cool about this.

So we designed this tool, you can imagine it's pretty simple. You answer some questions and then we say, okay, great. Daniele, we think this is the right internet package for you. And so the first thing was that. We saw a really high completion rate. Most people who started this tool got to the end.

So that was a win, right? And we also saw that conversion went up by It was I think I'm trying to do the math here quickly But conversion went up from by about 2. 2 percent which you know sounds little but it's actually quite impressive When you think about industry standard kind of conversion rate,

I hold these examples very tightly where we have and that's all I have metrics to show. But what was really interesting, even more so for the service design nerd was, we had this hypothesis, okay, people are gonna do this tool and then they know, okay, great, this helps me compare options.

And now I know the choice that's right for me. But actually the behavior that we saw was people would use this tool. And they would do their own browsing and comparison on product pages. So what I thought was really interesting about this and bringing it back to your your chapter is we might want to be able to give people the possibility to compare in many different ways, right?

So We thought, oh, it's just gonna be one and done, and then you click, yeah, buy this one. But actually, it was one input among many that people wanted to be able to feel reassured. And so I love the idea of, can you layer these principles that you've outlined, and use more than one to really support people?

Daniele: Absolutely. There are two or three ideas that I very resonate with that you're mentioning. So I'm trying to do a mental bookmark of the elements that I'd like to share with you. One is This idea of simulation, this is one idea. The other idea is this kind of mixing small elements together.

And then the last one is like creating tools that help people compare, even if it's not comparing just what's within your company. Which one would you like to start with? Which one of these keywords is tickling

Linn: you the most?

Comparison beyond your company

Linn: Let's do the comparison not just within your company.

Daniele: Because one thing that I find very interesting in your example is this idea that, okay, once I answer these questions, at the end, you're telling me, okay, this is the type of subscription you shall get, this type of, this number of megabytes, et cetera, et cetera.

Then as a consumer, I know, okay, now I know how to compare because I can now go to So I can go to the competitor and look, what's the fucking megabytes here? Okay, that's the megabytes. That's something that I can compare. Okay. The up thing is that. So now I know that I am comparing this offer to this one.

And so you're not just helping people in understanding your offer, but also to having a bit of education about. What it means, what these numbers mean, and then even if they don't choose you in the end, they remember you because you're the one that helped them decide, which is a

Linn: very strong thing.

Oh my god, Daniele, I'm getting very excited because I feel like a lot of companies and services and organizations are very scared to do the comparison outside, right? It's like we want to almost pretend like no competitors exist, right? We just want to like tunnel vision, like there's no way you're going elsewhere.

And of course, we all know as like people, as consumers that of course, we're comparing across a range of options. And it's very rare that we are only looking at one choice. And so I think what you said is really powerful, where even if you play that role in helping the broader comparison, That's awesome.

Or if you're brave enough to explicitly say, here are our competitors and here's why we think you should choose us. That's even better, from a sort of service design perspective.

Daniele: It's amazing when you reflect on the fact that many SaaS companies or software as a service They do that, if you go on on the tools many tools will say, oh, we compare like that to Notion, Notion offer that, we offer that.

And then obviously, it's biased, but you at least read it in a way where you're like, ah, okay, where do they say they, they are less good? Usually that's, at least that's how I read these kind of charts, but I'm looking, okay, where do they think they suck? And that's a good information for me because then I know, okay, is this.

The place where they suck, is this something that is important to me or do they suck at the right place where I say, Oh, this is something that I don't care about. So it's fully okay. I would love to try it. Yeah. And this comparison, I'm amazed how little they exist and how it's now, other companies that have started to create this comparison sites, where you're like, but why wouldn't you do that as a company itself?

Say So we are this insurance we know it's, at least in Switzerland, we have each often, we, everybody changes health insurance because prices changes, so we all change and then we all know we're going to compare. So why are you not, as a company, saying if you are in the premium sector or in the low cost sector?

The other low cost guys are blah, blah, blah. We are that much cheaper, or we are more expensive, but we're much nicer, we have customer support they don't have, which is okay to say. So I'm amazed about the fact that not many services do that

Linn: in a way. Yeah. And it brings to mind, I guess that's when you have services that emerge to fill that need, right?

The I think particularly in insurance, there is, Compare the market dot whatever or I, I don't know the specific names, but there's all of these services that then become aggregators that try to help you do an apples to apples comparison. And I think in this kind of systems thinking world, that's the idea about how do you, a lever in the system is aggregating and Democratizing or opening access to information and comparison, right?

So I think this is an interesting one, like where there is information asymmetry. I don't know if this is economics or, but, that's an opportunity.

Creating comparison to educate people about technical stuff

Daniele: Yeah, and I think you, in the example of your project, you did another thing, which is very smart with this comparison, you're giving people, the knowledge of, oh, when I'm streaming, this is important, that's I'm more looking at upstream, downstream, this kind of upload, download.

Okay, so now you have to look at that number. This one needs to be higher than that, because then you can stream and say, Okay, now I got it, and I know my kid wants to stream on Twitch. I don't know anything about it, but he he told me stream Twitch. I saw the logo. Now I know if I want to make my kid happy, I need to have that thing, and it's okay.

Yeah, and

Linn: I feel like that's such a huge opportunity and role for service designers is we're being translators between how an organization thinks about or conceives of its offerings and how lay people or regular people think and talk, right? And of course, it's hard when you're a specialist, when you're an expert.

Service designers are definitely guilty of this, jargon, language. We laughed at the start about how hard it is when someone says, what do you do? And I'm just like, Oh, don't even ask, not saying we have it all figured out, but that translation opportunity, I think is a cool one.

And what's so nice is in the design process, we get to listen to how people talk about these things and what their considerations are when we, do research and then we can use those, that language and words, so it's cool. I love that part.

The bad stuff

Daniele: I said in the intro, you're good at critiquing, so I'm going to switch gears and I love, so I'm very excited about that part. That's usually the part that I'm more, the most excited about, because obviously, my ego feels very flattered by people saying, telling that the principles are good.

But the place where I learned the most is when people disagree, that's where it starts to be very interesting. So I'm quite interested, what are the principles that you say I don't agree with that. I would have a different take on that. Yeah. So I

Linn: maybe have two, one that's not so much an outright disagreement, but a tweak.

And then I have one that's like maybe something I think might be missing. Cool.

The bad stuff: show me how it compares

Linn: Yeah. So the little tweak that I brought was I think the principle of show me how it compares, we've just had a, chat about that, a long chat about its importance. However, my little critique is I felt that the example was more about service usage than reassurance before joining.

So I think the example you have is about comparing VO2max from your Fitness Tracker, Apple Watch, or, something similar. Which is, I think, a great example, but the pedantic person in me was like, but this is about when you're using it, not about reassuring me before I join. So that's my little, that's my one little critique.

I'll pause there.

Daniele: Which is a very good critique indeed. Which is a very good critique. What example would you give where you say this is a maybe a stronger example to show that, like

Linn: before usage? Yeah, so I guess we've talked about some and one from a project and I was trying to think about this and I was thinking about car sharing.

So we use Zipcar which is car sharing service. I think there's many similar kind of models out there. And They do a good job of comparing, like we talked about, it's not only about comparing within a company, but it's also about the broader option. So Zipcar has some really great blog posts that are like Zipcar versus car rental, Zipcar versus owning a car and so I think that could be an example of how do you help people to compare their options before they join a service and acknowledging when you think about the kind of jobs to be done, right?

I love this classic jobs to be done story about the milkshake, have you heard this one? sO the job the milkshake's really doing is people need something that they can have on their commute that, that takes time to drink and fills them up, right? And so it was like this thick milkshake was the solution.

And anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make there is just thinking about people might be exploring options beyond the obvious solution set. And so how can we support that comparison? So Zipcar knows that they're not just being compared against other car sharing, they're being compared against, hey, what if I just rented a car?

What if I just buy my own car? What Uber? And this is also a really good opportunity. to help people understand when your service is the right fit. So for example, Zipcar isn't going to be super cost effective if you're going on a road trip for two days because of the way that it's set up.

Although we, and this is where you get into people hacking the service. So we we ended up using Zipcar for a long trip, which was quite expensive because we left it too late and there were no other options. So we used the service for something it's not really designed to do. But that I think could be an example of how do you do the comparison before someone's joining and to reassure them.

Compare with competitors and alternatives

Daniele: I love the advice of saying, don't just compare with competitors. But compare also with alternatives, meaning if it's car, compared to public transportation, compared to a bike if it's a, you are a consultancy, that's the one that I often do in my freelance work, I say, okay.

There are several ways of doing it. There is the way of not doing it, not doing anything. That's always a choice, and what's good about it is we're going to save a lot of time, we're going to save a lot of money. Dangers are these and these. Then you could hire me, that's one possibility, or we could have a one hour free coffee where I tell you this is how we could do it and you could do it yourself.

Because it's not fucking magic, sometimes you need a bit of help, but it's not magic. And then, usually, sometimes people say, oh just tell me the few tips, because in the end, we have very competent people. Could you just chat with Dan? He's super smart. Yeah, sure. And then you're giving the right service to the right person.

As you said, it's just making sure that people get in for the good, for the right. So that once they are in, they are not like, oh, I'm tricked, I was tricked, and now I'm in this relationship, but based on a lie, so I want to get out of it. The kind of a typical thing where, you know, you met someone online and then you go to the bar and you say, okay, you're very different than what you said and what you're talking about is very different about what we were texting.

So I'm going to leave now. So it's basically the same idea. And I think it's very powerful, this, not thinking only about competitors, but also alternatives.

Linn: Yeah. And that's where that kind of, jobs to be done type theory can help us to get to the root of, agnostic, every, every company, every organization thinks that they're the center of their customer's world. And it's no, newsflash, you're like Pluto out on the edge of the solar system, if you're lucky. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but and so understanding what else might be in that solar system And thinking, down to first principles about what someone is trying to solve for, I think is powerful for sure.

So then I'll give you my little addition. It's actually a really good segue the meeting people. We're good with transitions. I know. I'm like, wow. Cause I was going to say my little build was what about a principle around giving people an out? And so what I mean by that is. What does it look like to break up?

What does the end look like? So before people have even joined and again, I think we could debate about where does it fit? Is this the right section? But that was a little bit for me of for example, so many services these days are subscription services, and we know that there's dark patterns around.

You can sign up so easily in one click, but to unsubscribe, you're going to have to, I don't know, like hike to the top of this mountain and call a specific phone line between 3 and 3. 30 and a blue moon, and it's just so brutal, right? So Can you reassure people by saying, hey, if you want to leave, this is what it looks like.

Missing principle: Show me how to get out of it before I get into it

Linn: And that's a little bit, I think, not exactly, but you touch on it with tell me how many automated emails you'll send me. So you're at least setting this expectation. But could we go further and say, Before you even start, hey, don't worry, like this is the level of commitment and this is what it looks like to get out of this if it's wrong for you.

Daniele: I love it. It's like a, so I'm going to sound very strange, it's like when we were dating with my wife, I was like that, I was very clear on, okay, we are in this together for now, but let's be clear, we can get out of it in that way.

And. No worries. It's gonna, it's gonna work, we don't have to make a scene of it. So we are at this stage where this is possible and this is the art that exists. And and it's a very reassuring thing, even for such serious stuff. Yeah. anD especially, the biggest the bigger the subscription or the prices, the bigger comes the question of, okay, but if I don't like what happens, how long will I have to wait? What's, and and giving like a bit of a, of an example, say, Oh, that's how easy you can, you can unsubscribe within two minutes. Having a number or so, or in two steps, where you say, okay, if it's in two steps, sounds reasonable, knowing that Amazon or other people, you have a 15 steps and the dance that you have to do and you then have

Linn: to go through you leaving?

Is it? Because of, Matt, I'm like, okay, I see what you're doing here. I understand that you're trying to identify the root of the objection and then be like, but wait, we have a cheaper plan. Or you can have your delivery only come every two weeks or, and I'm like, yeah, but I just don't want to pay full price and I'm over it.

So no, you know,

Daniele: And, but I think it's definitely a very good way of doing it. I, and especially for this kind of more expensive stuff and There is a good example that builds on that, which was in the previous book, which was this idea, of setting a moment where you get the chance to get an out.

For example, this is something that so my wife is a pastor in a church that is called Salvation Army, and they have a thing that they do very well. which they have this yearly membership renewal thing. Being in a church is a bit more serious than being in a soccer club, but still they do this kind of thing where they say, okay, we're going to celebrate memberships.

And so we get to ask people, do you want to renew your membership? Do you still want to be part of this spiritual family? And it's a very good thing because it's it helps them, to, to catch people once they're drifting, but they didn't say anything, and then they can voice something and say, I don't feel comfortable anymore, or.

It doesn't cover my needs, or, now that we have more kids I feel the kid service is not so good, so we're looking for the options, and then you can then help people transition either to another service, which is the best way, for people to then go forward. Say, hey, this was a very lovely church.

They recommended me to another church. It was lovely. Or just, fix problems. Yeah. Or just let people, go out in a way that they, many people are in a situation, especially with stuff that is very tricky, like spirituality or this kind of stuff where you don't feel it's ever a good moment to talk about it.

Like saying, I don't feel right about it. And so having these moments where you say, are forced moments where you say, Hey, just to check in. wOuld you still want to be in a relationship? Is this something we're still, we still care about? And small companies do that well. Also with renewals, where they call you and say, Hey, we're going to renew your accounts.

It's going to happen next month. Is this something that you still want or would you like me to cancel the thing for you? And then you say, Oh no, I'd love to stay. I just completely forgot about it, but now I want to stay, which is very different from just getting a bill and say, Oh, we renewed your

Linn: subscription.

Bye bye. Yeah. I love that idea. You're creating that dedicated space to check in and then not seeing the renewal as, something that has to be combative or. But as an opportunity to just check in, make sure it's still the right fit and yeah, I love it. Yeah. It's

Daniele: Of a date night for where you say, okay, how are you darling?

Oh it's good. Oh, I hate you these days. Okay. That's fine.

Linn: Yeah. Love it.

Resources to go further

Daniele: You said you're nerdy. . And I want to get some more nerdiness out of your brain. What are things that you think would be a very good companion to either this topic or the book in general, what would you recommend to people to

Linn: go for? Yeah, I have three to share.

Book: Good Services

Linn: So one is Good Services by Lou Downe really fantastic book.

And I, I see some similarities in how you and Lou write in terms of, very accessible, clear, great everyday examples. And. I think it also came to mind because it's also a set of principles principles for good services. So that one came to mind as a really great companion. Another one I thought could be fun.

Blog article: Service Design Heuristics

Linn: So again with, similar ideas being out there in the zeitgeist. In 2014 2015, very early in my Service Design kind of explorations. I wrote with a collaborator, Nick Crampton. We were working at a company called Usability Matters in Toronto, which is no longer sadly but. We wrote a set of service design heuristics inspired by the kind of UX heuristics.

And so I think that one is fun to revisit because some of these principles, we had ones around setting expectations, clarity of service offering, and there's some fun kind of, examples from 2015. So it's fun to look back. So you can find that on the Nate Manifest blog.

Book: Designing Ends

Linn: And then, The other one that came to mind for the critique around how do you give people an out or, could we add something around making it easy to break up or what does it look like if I want to leave Joe McLeod has a book called Ends Ends.

Which is all about the end, and what I really this is almost Daniele, it's like a full circled moment when we're, of course we want to think about the beginning and the joining, and then we want to, even in that time, even before it's begun, we want to be setting ourselves up for a good end.

There's a classic I think it's Mad Men quote, and one of Don Draper's girlfriends. He's leaving her for another woman. And she says, I hope she knows that you only like the beginnings of things, right? Oh, salty zing. And can we have a companion to this chapter around, ends?

So that was one that came to mind as well.

The different levels of principles

Daniele: Awesome. I love how the two first recommendations for me, are. One step above these principles, the principles in this book are very granular. There are very small, tiny things, that the, and that's why there are so many, and I love how your heuristics, that you made, there are not two thousands of them, they're just a few dozens, I think, if I remember.

That's

Linn: right. And. It's so funny because I think this is the, this is like the synthesizer in me, right? Like even reading the chapter, the synthesizer in me, I think as service designers, we're good at chunking up and down and we need things at all those levels, right? It's awesome to have really specific, really granular.

And then it's also interesting and fun to say, can we generalize this to the level of I think they have 10 so we can play with this level of zoom, level of granularity. And yeah, it's just really fun to think about.

Daniele: Yeah. And this is definitely something, that's, I would highly recommend to people, this knowing at which granularity level you want to go and then picking resources based on that.

Yes. And also to not be stuck in one, obviously we all are biased towards a direction where we say, Oh, I want the tiny nitty gritty or I want to do very philosophical things, and knowing where these different things are is very helpful. And I think having a, a reading where you say, okay.

I know a bit the tiny little things. I know there's bigger principles like Lou's or yours. And then, even being a step above, what are like these very first principles where you can just say, okay, maybe there are two or three maximum, and these are mindsets that change everything and that englobe everything.

And then you can say, okay, now. I can be very clear on, if I want to be, to summarize what we're doing, these are three ideas. Okay, how do I check that we are on the good way? These are the ten biggest criteria. Okay, and how does it look like in practice? Okay, now We have hundreds of possibilities of doing that.

I think having that is very strong.

Linn: Completely agree. And I think something that you do so well, that's so powerful, is having the specific examples, right? I find that really inspiring. And then It gives you this opportunity to practice the muscle of how do I generalize from the specific. It's actually, I think it's generally easier to generalize from the specific, right?

Than to have these very kind of big general things and then try to go specific. But, regardless, as you said, you want to practice. Both. And I love how you also include like questions or prompts to say, how could you apply this, right? And so I think that's it. We want the spectrum and we want to practice and then we don't want to know what our tendency is, right?

I am the kind of synthesizer tendency who wants to go to the like philosophical first word. And then it's okay yeah. But come back down to like reality, get grounded.

Daniele: Yeah, absolutely. But it's, I think you said a very important word, which is this. Spectrum words, also knowing that, there are people who prefer to go from bottom to up, and people who prefer to go from up to bottom, and knowing it, then gives you the ability to know, okay, what type of resources I'm looking for, and obviously add sometimes a little provocation that is not natural to you, just to get a little bit uncomfortable, but but knowing it makes you save a lot of time, not reading stuff that you will say, ah, if only I knew that in fact, I'm more a bottom up person, then it's a different reading list than the people who you say, okay I want just to have for this very big philosophical principles.

And then I can go into it and it's different readings. And I think this is a very important thing to, before you buy any book, just to feel. What type of, how do I come to learning, is it from practical example to then I do the generalization or give me the big idea and I will find the practical example.

Daniele. It's not the same authors, it's not the same books and, but knowing it then helps you

Linn: to get there. Completely. And Daniele, it sounds like, how do you reassure yourself before you buy a book or sign up or join?

Mixing principles together

Daniele: I had a mental bookmark which I found very interesting. You were reading the chapter and you said, Oh, I'm mixing these principles together. Could you just maybe give a little bit more on that idea?

Linn: This goes actually exactly to what we're saying. So to me, there's almost the synthesizer brain says, okay, reassure people before they join. This is all about, clarity, and these are the. I'm referring a bit to the heuristics we wrote back, way back, but it's clarity of service offering, and then it's setting expectations.

And so then to me, the principles become a little bit of how. So you might show someone the before and after, whether that's with your awesome tagline like dinner solved, or with, some of the things we talked about. It might be. Giving people ways to compare their options and you might layer in an example or a trial or a taster so I think that's what I was referring to was this idea that you can pick and mix and these They're very interconnected.

For example show me an example of what I'm getting into, really, to me, connects very directly with tell me how many automated emails you'll send. It's okay, Daniele, for example, we're going to send you A, B, C, D email. I think that's what I was referring to was the way in which you want to pick and mix and layer, and I see them as all Very interconnected.

And that's probably just the synthesizer brain.

The importance of picking principles

Daniele: Awesome. And this was interesting to me. And especially what you're saying now is because I hear these elements where you're saying pick, this is a verb that I really like, which means. When there are these books where there is a lot in it, it's the opposite of the book of Lu or Heuristics, where you try to just have what's really useful, for almost everyone.

Here it's like the opposite, where you have to pick, and I think this is a very good reminder to people, just to say, hey, don't do everything in depth, because You will be fucking overwhelmed. Just pick the ones that at the moment feel smart, feel useful, and then you do your shopping list.

It's like

Linn: a And that it's also context specific, right? And I think this is also where you talk about, what skills do we bring? What perspective, what magic from service design? It is that selectiveness, the curation, the knowing what to experiment with or try or apply, we don't always know how it's going to go, right?

Rather than blanket, just dumping everything or and so practicing that critical thinking and discernment, right? And this is in your principle that we haven't talked a lot about, ask and share only the information absolutely needed. And Again, to draw a comparison, I think in heuristics we talked about right information, right time.

So there's this idea that we can't actually reduce complexity, we can only move it to the right place. And so this is part of the discernment of which things am I going to apply? To your point don't just go, oh my god, I have to do everything and it's a lot here. But, some stuff, you just throw it out the window, no problem.

And then some stuff, you're like, ooh, that gives me an idea. I wonder if we could try x,

The importance of picking knowledge

Daniele: Thanks so much, your view of this pick and match, I'm going to steal that.

Oh, please. Because I find it's very interesting. The wording is so clear. And not just for that book, but in general, when it comes to design methods, when it comes to basically any service design knowledge that is shared, it's just. It's reminding people, hey, you can choose, it's a, it's an offering.

And I had this question once, and that's why I'm reacting so strongly to that. I had someone who was a bit younger telling me, Daniele, there is so much stuff. When I go on LinkedIn, there are every day, there's a new tool, a new method. I Get overwhelmed because I'm thinking I, do I need to know all of that?

Should I try all of it? And I'm like, God, no. It's we just share, everybody shares what he loves, but as everybody's different, it's a bit overwhelming. And then I had to remind that person to, in the end of, in the end, for example, my practice. I don't use that many methods, I have my few favorites that I always reuse and sometimes, I get in a bit of an uncomfort discomfort zone where I say, let's try something new, and see if it sticks, if it doesn't stick, what's good to try something new, and then maybe I'll add it to my core toolbox.

It's basically the same with any knowledge like that. With time, you're building your kind of core sets. And then with time, you bring new elements, you refresh. Don't get overwhelmed by the amounts of stuff that is out there. You can always pick and

Linn: choose.

Set a theme to avoid being overwhelmed by knowledge

Linn: I love that. And something that I had said to someone once, I think it was in a mentoring session, but was just this idea of, something that helps me is Pick a theme or a topic that you want to go deep on or that is your current question or exploration and use that as a bit of a filter because I relate too, right?

And, as people who are curious, who are constant knowledge seekers it's easy to get overwhelmed or feel like there's so much stuff out there and you want to read more and learn more and go to more conferences and blah blah. And then I have to remind myself It's okay for things to take time.

It's okay to have one or two things I want to experiment with. And then, like you said, have my core approach or knowledge. And then remembering to that, Nothing substitutes doing the work or having the experience. That's where we really learn and really integrate. Of course it's great to get inspired, but then just pick one thing you want to try in practice,

Daniele: kind of setting a theme for the year, especially now we are in December, so it's a good thing to maybe say, Hey next year I'm going to go in more complexity or sustainability, or I want to look at I don't know, oh. Maybe I'm going to look at quantum physics and how I could relate that to service design.

It's okay, cool. Or reading more PhD stuff because I hate it. And maybe it's going to bring me some new way of thinking. I love that as a way to have a bit of a more information diet where automatically you can say. Oh that's not for now. And if it needs to come back, it will come back.

Linn: Yes. Yes. And trusting that. Oh my gosh. Thinking about what, I love that information diet. What's the information diet, the information environment we're setting up. And it's so hard because we live in a time and a culture where information is everywhere. And yeah, so I think it's really good.

How can we practice like information self care?

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Daniele: Perfect. So you gave a lot to people today. You shared a lot of information you gave a lot to me also. And I'd like to ask, what's a call to action that you could share with the community, in a way that they can give back to you after this the, this moment where you say this was great.

What can I do for

Linn: them? Yeah if it resonates for folks, the invitation is to sign up for Ask a Service Designer newsletter. I would love to see you there. You can do that at mademanifest. com. So it's made-manifest.com and then if you have a question that you'd like advice or a reflection on, you could submit a question.

Those would be Those are really fun because, as we talked about, that's the opportunity to share, practice, engage in dialogue, Yeah, just build that connection and knowledge and community. So I'd love if people are up for that.

Daniele: So we'll join the newsletter and send a question.

Closing words

Daniele: Is there anything that you wanted to share or say that we didn't cover yet?

Linn: I don't think so. I do want to say a thank you, Daniele. This was really fun for me and I really enjoyed my chapter and reflecting on it.

So thank you for hosting and facilitating and sharing your audience and platform and creation with everyone, I really admire that and it's fun to get to talk to peers. Yeah,

Daniele: yOu're the queen of transitions. It's awesome. It's the perfect time for me to say exactly the same.

I'm copying. Sorry. It's been really lovely, to be with you and as I said, before we had the call, I said, the one thing that I value the most for me is my time and every time I get to ask someone, to give me, an hour of their time, it feels to me like asking two millions of them, and today you gave me two million so I'm super thankful for that and not just because you gave me a lot, but also the way you interacted the way we chatted is what was extremely lovely.

I'm super thankful for that. And also super thankful for what you do with, for the community with newsletter, but also all the rest where you engage. So thank you so much for that.

Linn: Yeah. Thank you, Daniele. The feeling is mutual and I hope folks get something out of it. And we inspire some other folks.

Daniele: Absolutely. Thanks so much and have a lovely evening. Take care. Bye bye.

Roberta Tassi is the Founder of Oblo, a hyper-specialised service design studio in Italy and a service design pioneer through her practice, teachings and publications like the website servicedesigntools.org.

With Roberta we discuss the chapter “How Can We Help People Change Habits?”

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• How service designers should be prouder of their instincts and be more like authors

• Enhanced Service Design tools that make stakeholders eat their “complexity” veggies

• The Maturity of Service Design in Italy

• The importance of inspiration to create change

• Models and books to go deep into the topic of behaviour change.

• Book: The Game: A Digital Turning Point by Alessandro Baricco

• Book: Engaged: Designing for Behavior Change by Amy Bucher

• Model: The COM-B Model for Behavior Change

• Approach: System Thinking for Service Design

• Tools: Enhanced service design tools

Made with AI

This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Daniele: Hi Roberta, such a pleasure to have you here today.

Roberta: Hi. Hello.

Daniele: I have one very simple question for you, which is when you go to a birthday party how do you usually present yourself to people that don't know you yet?

Meet Roberta

Roberta: I'm a very simple person. So in general, I would just say I'm a designer and try not to talk about work necessarily when Yeah, I'm yeah, at the birthday party or in general, when I'm outside the professional sphere, I like to, yeah I think in general to be simple and to, to more I'm a big listener usually in those situations.

The less I can tell about myself, the better.

Daniele: Seems that this is a this is a pattern that I see with many service designers, which is like. Let's keep it very simple so that people don't ask me too many questions.

Roberta: Yeah, also.

Daniele: And how do you present yourself when you go to... More kind of professional parties, stuff from some networking events and and events that where people are more interested in what your professional background is and how do you present yourself?

I assume that it's a bit more complex.

Roberta: Yeah, I think that's the moment in which I would take the word service on and say, okay, I'm a service designer, but also I think in general, in my experience, I've been working in service design also in experience and interaction design a lot. What I try to stress in those moments is is that I perceive also myself a bit as a pioneer in service design in the way in which I've been studying it when I was let's say working on the service design tools project and all the collection of tools and the attempts also later on to bring that type of research into the practice and then from the practice.

Give something back to the community. So I try to tell a bit about my personality and history in the way in which I approach the practice and the way in which I may turn it into something I do every day. So that's that's something I highlight. I also try to stress the fact that service design sounds always very functional in a way.

So you have this idea that services need to work well for people. And there is somebody who is there to try to understand all the problems and to get them fixed which is not necessarily the 100% the way, which I believe or I think about service design, I think there is a lot of of a big part of it is also more about the experience that you are creating both in the way in which it's delivered to the user and in the way in which it.

It's built inside a company and that's something that has a lot to do also with the way in which you want to think about it and shape it in a way. And so that's something I always stress is that service designers Describe always themselves as, okay, I'm a service designer, I do this and that.

Autorship as a service designer

Roberta: But in my opinion, they are all different in a way as any designer in other disciplines. If you ask a designer to, to bring, come up with an idea of a chair. And through it, it will be different if you ask different people. And for me, with services and with this type of practice, it's the same. There is a personal dimension that you put into what you do, and that doesn't need to be hidden, but needs to come up somehow.

And, yeah, a lot of what I've been doing is also I think in the direction of saying there are different ways of approaching it. And I want to talk about also, in a way, my way of thinking of the services, mine or my team ways of thinking of the service, because I believe everyone has personal points of view on this.

Daniele: It's something that I really resonate with this last part where you say service designers are not just a cog in a machine that they take problems and they output solutions, but they also have a bit of an alter element or creative element where you can give the same problem to two different service designers and they will not come with exactly the same solution because there is a part of them in it.

And definitely I think it's a very important reminder that this is also. Something that is necessary and something that you can celebrate, that there is a human element that can be expressed in it.

Roberta: Yeah, and I think it's something that we, it's never been it's never been celebrated that much in this practice.

Also for the way in which it's positioned with the community. Corporates or with the consultancies, it's more okay, I will do the work and then we'll have the final results in terms of process, experience and everything. But there is the personal dimension and I think that's also connected to the type of relationship that as a designer you establish with the people you are working with in the organization you are working with and vice versa.

So in my opinion for example, the whole idea of which sometimes I feel crazy about of leaving more the big consultancy fear firms and trying to do something different and at a different scale is also a way to establish these relationship Very much more on like the personal dimensions and try to, yeah, develop a path together.

And in that path is equally important for me to know the organizations I'm working with. And obviously try to understand them well and with my team to support them well. But vice versa is equally important. It's I think a dimension that could be easily lost in bigger scales.

Daniele: Yeah, so what would you say to a young service designer who hears about this, maybe for the first time Oh, I, I have a bit of a, of an altership in in in, in what I'm doing. How could you, what would be a question that you would give or an advice that you would give to. to young service designers to be more aware of that and to be more in the, oh, I'm not just a cog in a machine, but I'm also a bit of an alter in

Roberta: my work.

I think it's important to trust everybody's own kind of instinct in a way in the design, and it's a act as well. And Show your points of view, because our work is not necessarily, let's say, thinking a lot of tasks or boxes that we have to fill every day, it's not just about filling canvases that we use every day.

It's really about bringing a point of view in the conversation and that is maybe shaped also based on what is emerging from research, what are the inspirations that you have been collected, but also your personal point of view. So don't hide it. And my question for the young designers is Always around this aspect, what's your perspective on what we are doing?

And what is the, what are the risks that you see? Or in general try to expose yourself and your opinions. And also to identify your entry point, let's say, to the discussion, because each of us has also service design is a kind of complex in terms of also topics and competencies that maybe it touches upon and It's not needed to develop all, let's say, the good skills of a service designer at the same level.

I think all of us have maybe things that we can, somebody owns or can do a bit better than others, et cetera. So I think my invite is always to express the opinion, but also to identify your strengths in terms of what is your the elements in this world field that make you different than compared to another service designer.

For some people, it could be the way in which you visualize complex situations. For some other people, it's the way in which you talk to the end users or the way in which you facilitate sessions with the stakeholders. But there is always something that is maybe a more special part of the practice that for each of us could be different.

And I think being aware of that as Young designers, but also then more experienced designers being also aware of the capabilities you have and the possibilities you have in the project a bit more.

Daniele: It's very refreshing to hear that, the, having the word instinct in it, is a, is such a refresher.

To say, yes we have methods, yes, we have processes and we have a common language, but at the same time, I'm allowed to share instinct. Sometimes even if I don't know why, just saying, Hey, I feel something here and this is what I feel. And sometimes when there is a point of view which might be a bit more constructed also to be able to say, Oh, I have this point of view because of this and this and that.

And also to be able to say. Yes, I'm a service designer, but I'm this type of service designer, because it's such a broad discipline that nobody is a perfect service designer where you say, I'm good at visualization, at research, at synthesis, at workshops, at implementations. That doesn't exist.

. But maybe you touch a lot of these elements, but you are maybe just like a workshop fan and say, oh, as a service design, that's where I excel and that, and there are other parts where I can can also help, but maybe I excel a little bit less. .

Roberta's special sauce for Service Design

Daniele: And so I'd like to ask where, what's the Roberta special flavor of service design or your special sauce that you bring

Roberta: in?

This is a tough question that nobody is typically asking, no, I'm joking, it's I think I like a lot our work and there are many aspects I like of it, but I think for me, probably the best answer would be, uh, synthesizing. complex matters into something that could be easily, more easily understood and discussed.

I think for a variety of reasons, some of which probably are just belong to the way in which my brain works. It's it's something that I think. It makes a difference when I'm on a project.

Enhanced Service Design tools

Daniele: And I'd like here to just highlight one part, one tiny part of your work that you've done which is public is these advanced service design tools that you are showcasing and working on, because I think they, they highlight one part of this Roberta aspect, which is taking.

Things which have a certain complexity also, and then bringing them back also in the world of service design with smart visualizations and and I think that for people who are interested in that, go check that out because these tools are great. For me, I'm not a complexity guy, I'm not a system thinker, but every time I have to share something about that, I say, Oh, go check out Roberta's work and Oblo's work, because it's inspiring even for someone who is not of that of that brand or of that type of of complexity work.

Roberta: Yeah, I think what we tried to do there is that we noticed that there are certain things we do every day in the projects, like mapping out the customer journey or developing a profile of a potential user and stuff like that, that we saw the potential of those tools in the, in terms of socialization of certain concepts.

So we don't take necessarily all, a lot of time in explaining how you analyze an experience. We just do it together with people who are, and maybe I've never done it before. And the fact that the tool is simple is. It's an enabler in that conversation to then talk also about the complexity.

We don't want to hide the complexity. It's just a way of getting the conversation started. So when we started to ask ourselves, okay, but then maybe these tools are not. Enabling us to see aspects that nowadays are extremely relevant, like the sustainability and the impact of a project or a solution, the evolution of the behaviours of a user over time and elements like that.

We thought maybe if we find a way to include certain aspects. in the tools and in the methods that we use every day, maybe that could open up the conversation even without taking the time or the space or the attention of our stakeholders to do a lecture on what is behavioral change or how we design for sustainability.

So that was the intuition and I think that one of the elements I could share is We use those tools every day in our work so that we can always have a little bit of that conversation, even if the scope of the project is not to come up with the most sustainable solution in the first place. We make room for that conversation.

Daniele: It feels like you're... Adding sprinkles of complexity, behavior change, or if we would say it like like a dad would say, it's hiding the vegetables in the burger, it's and people eat them and they'll say, Oh, this is a very good burger. And it's yeah, it's.

It's a veggie made, but you don't need to know about that, and we can have this conversation a lot of time. And I think this is a very smart element that you're doing here, which is bringing these elements of complexity and systems thinking, behavioral change, and so on for a strategic foresight at a level, which is A starting level for people to get used to these reflections slowly, and then once the maturity level is higher, we can then go to another place.

Maturity of Service Design in Italy

Daniele: Maybe let me ask you something on the topic of maturity, because this is something that I'm always very interested in. How do you see the maturity of service design in Italy specifically? You're working a lot in Italy, but you're also a public speaker. You've been traveling in a few places. Maybe do you see a difference or some specificities in how service design is practiced in Italy, how mature it is, and Maybe?

Can you also share a bit how you perceive the maturity of service design in general?

Roberta: I think we are in a situation in which definitely there has been a recognition for the value of this practice, in my opinion. Also, due to the fact that with the digital transformation processes for many companies reaching a certain level of maturity, it has become clear for a lot of organizations that you don't.

You don't necessarily just need the skills of a UX designer to prototype and implement new digital touch points and in general to bring innovation and technology in what you do, but there is the need also to think with a different perspective. So I think that's the point maybe a few years ago in which a lot of companies started to practice research for service designers also in Italy a lot.

And And I think that was obviously a good sign, something that we have always been dreaming about when I also worked a little bit with the government on a project about the digitalization of public sector services and it was basically something that if I think of myself back five years before, or ten years before, it was something that was absolutely unbelievable in my mind.

At the end, I think we reached that level of maturity. Now I think we are seeing ahead a slightly different situation because that spread and that, let's say, growth also in terms of the request for service designers in relations to processes of digital transformation, in my opinion, is.

Yeah, getting to a level in which it's covered. So I think there are new questions that probably companies, organizations, and governments need to take care of and for which we can bring interesting skills that are not just about again, new processes, new experiences, but it's...

about bringing more systemic approach, thinking about long term solutions, thinking about different models for the organizations. So I think we can be helpful in that sense, but we need also to understand how to keep the practice, let's say, aligned with the needs of the current society and what... are the biggest challenges that we are facing in these days.

And so I think that's a good input, in my opinion, especially for people who are in the education system. In Milan, we have a big faculty of service design and a master of service design that are basically educating and in general are welcoming every year people from all sorts of places. So I think we need as professionals to work with them to make sure that the next generation of service designers is having the competencies to face these new challenges that are coming up.

On a separate topic, let's say more about. Talking about, less about the market and more about the community, I think what we are seeing here in Italy is that there was a few years ago, a lot of enthusiasm and participation around the topics of service design because it was more like in many other places a moment of discovery of the existence of this new thing.

And so the community was gathering pretty often and in general. There were there was the energy, let's say, to take us time in the weekend, in the evenings, to participate, and really to spread the word. I think at the moment that's also following the maturity of the discipline a bit more in a.

It's a quiet moment, but what we are seeing is more interest in, let's say, vertical applications of service design to specific fields, so that we can really understand as practitioners or people who are interested in the topic. how it gets applied to very specific elements fields or segments.

And and I think that's where the conversation now, nowadays is more relevant.

Daniele: Awesome to see that there has been a first wave of service design with the digital transformation stuff with the community being excited about it. And that now it's like on the first plateau, maybe, if we can say like that, and the next wave is more about the specialization in in more specific verticals and also in expanding in more than in, in other areas.

And it's Also lovely to see when this recognition that, there is like this first dating part of the community with service design where, it's like you go for drinks, you're you're very excited about it. And now it feels like more, a more mature wedding, or marriage where we see each other every day.

It's okay. It's we don't need to have all the parties and And all the crazy stuff and and that this, and that, this is also a sign of maturity of the community in some way that we had the excitement and now there is like more this, hey, this is a long-term thing that we're gonna do for years.

. So we don't need to spend all our weekends on it so we can be more tactical about it too. Awesome. And it's. It's so interesting always to, to discover new to discover how service design is used in other countries. And and I'm sure people will go in depth in your profile and on Oblo's website to see all of your work.

Chapter critic

Daniele: And I'm particularly keen also today to get your perspective your, Personal, Roberta Soules, in the critique of one of the chapters of my next book on these tiny services and principles. And I'd like to ask, was there in the chapter that you read, which was how can we help people change habits? Was there something that you resonated with?

Roberta: I think a lot of the elements you mentioned are relevant when we talk about behavioral change. But at the same time there are elements that I was expecting to find there that were maybe I we're maybe missing. So at the end I was I left, I was left a bit. I think there is uncertain about the chapter itself.

The importance of triggers for change

Roberta: In particular, when I think of how do we change habits and behaviors, I think there is what we as designers, what we have been seeing a lot working in the years. It's always been that element of let's say, creating like triggers for people to then maybe start acknowledging a certain behavior is I don't know, generating certain outcomes, or even without that moment of awareness.

Jump in a new experience and then become aware later on of the process of change they are on it. So I think for example in my mind that there is always a very old at this point example that is when Nike launched the Nike Plus ecosystem and there were people who started to first of all, buy the sensor and then podcast.

com and then maybe became more fit. So that for me is an interesting way of, at the end, through a product, triggering, let's say, a behaviour change and let's say having a sort of an element that could be a catalyst for that change. And we saw it in in different contexts. Also when I was, for example, working at some point in Kenya into the informal settlement.

So we were dealing with the problem of fire and how the communities could. take action against this the start of basically fires in the settlement, which were basically destroying entire areas. In that case having a fire sensor that could detect when the fire was starting.

And then All the discussion around it and what could be the best system, the best process with that physical implication was a way to then bring a change to the community in, I think in a way that is more accelerated. So I think these symbolic elements always always help. And yeah, that's something that came to my mind when I was reading the chapter.

An incomplete book

Roberta: So

Daniele: interesting. I hear two elements. I hear one, which is you say the chapter left you hungry and the other part, which is you say, oh, there is a part about the catalysts, the triggers that is that is missing. So I come back to that just after and this is a very interesting part, which is which is something that Which is a feedback that I like, that people say, Oh, this left me hungry for more because the, in the way or the purpose I see for these books is not so much to be the answer to one question, to be the definite answer to one question, but to give a few very practical elements that people can start with.

And obviously this is the fourth book. There are more elements in the previous book, but I think this is a very good critique that people should know about, which is If you get this book will not give you the definite answer and it will not give you the kind of theoretical foundation to to work on these problems, but rather it will give you these tiny actions.

And I think this is a very important reminder that we have to give to people who might be interested in a book like that, that, there are different types of books and this one isn't one of those who will say, okay. What is behavior change? How does it work? What are you should know about this model?

Using inspiration for change

Daniele: No, it's just... Try this, maybe this could work for one element. And so now I'm very curious because you talked about this trigger, this catalyst. Could you maybe a bit expand on that and share what's your thinking when it comes to bringing change? How do you use these triggers?

How do you design them? How do you create these moments of where people say, Oh. Like the Nike plus thing, Oh, now I get something and it motivates me to go run. Or these fire triggers that you said how do you think about that? What's your way of working with these triggers?

Roberta: I think when especially when we work inside the Let's say at the transformation of inside the organization or not even at the level of the customer that is the one that we were mentioning before, we always say change is complex, first of all, and sets obviously the expectation for a long journey.

But I think that's something important to highlight and also that nobody likes to do complex things or to go through struggles just for the sake of doing it. So we always need, in a way, to see the rival point. Or maybe to have an inspiration, an experience that we would like to make both inside and outside the organization.

So I'm speaking both about the employee or the final customer. I think identifying these initiatives or elements that could be those triggers help because they can justify the effort in a way because maybe it's Something nice to do or something more interesting, something that you have never tried before, etc.

And we see also when we work inside the organization, so it's very hard to have a digital transformation process of change or other types of changes inside the teams and in the dynamics at work without Seeing where that could go or without having in mind some reference examples of successful initiatives that were created out of it.

And there is always even if both in the cases, let's say of an internal innovation or innovation that goes towards the outside. I think it's important to show, have those elements so that they can become the symbol of change, the reasons why, and also a bit of the motivator. And then I think the other part is to consider always the, in a certain way environmental portion of it.

And so what is Not just what is the individual, but also what's the group of individuals or the community and the environment around how that could influence the behavior as well. And I think there, there could be also a lot of inspirations that are more related to think of the initiatives that we do, or these triggers as something that is not always targeting individual but targeting groups and there are a lot of dynamics that could be maybe leveraged at that point.

Daniele: So it's definitely, if I'm hearing you you're saying it's a lot about creating an inspiration and less about Explaining, oh, you should do this because it's going to save your life and it's important that now you eat less sugar because blah, blah, blah, cholesterol levels, but more about sharing an image and a dream, something that people can aspire to and say, oh, yeah.

I want this I really want, and it's not like I don't want less less salt in my life. I don't want less sugar in my life, but what I really want is to be this fit guy who can run behind his kid who is learning to bicycle. This is something that I'm, that I aspire to, but eating less pizza, that's definitely not something that I aspire to.

I find this kind of element of inspiration definitely important.

Roberta: Another very simple example, a lot of time when we are in these processes of changing the way in which organizations work, they start thinking first of all of the tools they have and how they are using it. And they ask things like, okay, now we have to train everybody on how to write the minutes from the meeting or how to send the calendar invite.

That sounds already boring in first place, so typically we suggest to think more of the rituals that they would like to have or maybe what is the ideal let's say project or way of running the project that you want to bring inside the company and then by Practicing that or explaining that, obviously, also these other, let's say, components, which is basically acquiring basic digital skills, will be part of it, but they are perceived also and integrated into something larger and more inspirational for everybody who's participating.

How to create an aspiration for change

Daniele: And how did you get to do those kind of more... Aspirational, inspirational elements. Do you have your own kind of secret recipe to get there? Is it through research that you get there? How easy is it to find these more inspirational elements that can help trigger change?

Roberta: On one side, I think it's very difficult obviously to answer, but on one side we try to obviously also study more like literature around the topic in order to understand how behavioral science and scientists work and in general there are a lot, some Very simple frameworks like the COM-B model which is basically a sort of a fragmentation of the different elements that can influence a behavior and potentially become blockers for a change with the related, let's say, or associated enablers that could be an inspiration for ideation.

So in the time we have been using also these more like standard, I would say, frameworks a lot, but also opening the conversation with the people who are working on, with us on the project and ideating around this is very, it's very interesting because we can facilitate, let's say, conversation around what could be these elements and then structure a strategy around, around them.

Daniele: Thanks so much. So if I'm summarizing a bit, the one thing that you resonate with is this idea that we need triggers, we need to make the change visible and that we need to make this visible for people to say, ah, okay, there, there is something that I can change here. There is something that I can take power on.

The bias: too focused on the workplace

Daniele: And now I'd like to get even more critical. What's one thing where you say. Oh, this is deeply missing, this is something that I deeply disagree with, Daniele, in that part, or in the book in general.

Roberta: I Think, maybe for that part is also that I found a lot of these examples related, made me think of Situation at work, which is a big part of what we deal with, because when we are trying to change processes or work on the back end part of the service, that's for sure.

So I missed a bit that part of the front end.

Daniele: Like the real life of people and not just the workplace change. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think this is in, in, in this one, the change of habits is definitely more focused on the workplace than than the normal life, if we can say it like that.

Where to learn about behavioral change

Daniele: And what's maybe a resource that you would suggest or that you would suggest that would compliment that in a good way where you say. This is something that is missing how could people get that part that is missing?

Roberta: There, there is this yeah, nothing completely new, but for example, we have been using a lot the book Engaged ,it's published by Rosenfeld. And yeah, I think that's it's always a good reference for behavior change. So

Daniele: definitely if that chapter just left you hungry, good point. Go on Rosenfeld website, engaged. That's definitely the book to go deeper in in that aspect.

The toilet book format

Daniele: Is there anything else? Is there anything on that chapter or in the book in general that you'd like to share with the community, a reflection or something else that came through you as you were reading it?

Roberta: I liked a lot the format, so I think everybody could feel very much inspired by these thoughts and I like the idea that you can just maybe Not necessarily go through it from one page to the, from the first page to the last one, but even just open it up here and there as a way to get an inspiration or think about something.

So I think that's really cool. And yeah, I think that I don't have any more thoughts because I still have to read the whole thing. I focused on the chapter.

Daniele: Obviously. But yeah, thanks so much. It's I think often when I explain it to people, I say it's a toilet book, it's it's the books that you have on your, in your toilet, where you come in, you do your thing, and maybe you have a minute, and you open your magazine somewhere in the middle, and you start reading, and it's basically the same, it's just You read one, maybe say, ah, this was interesting, or maybe this wasn't, but at least it got me occupied for the time I had to do this action.

And and maybe that's, and I think that's a good a good place to end that critique I think, also to also give this humility of the, it's a simple book that, We'll give you a few inspirations, and if not, it will occupy your time on the throne. That's awesome. I know you are a big nerd as as we are, as many of us are in the service design community, and you're also a pioneer in that field, and so I assume there is a lot of resources, references, and elements that that you usually recommend on the topic of service design.

Resources to go further

Daniele: Let me ask you Is there, are there resources, books, models, or anything else that you'd like to particularly shed a light on for people interested in others or service design or behavioral change? What would you recommend to people? You already mentioned the combi model, the book Engaged. Are there other elements that you'd like to?

to share for people and say, Hey, this is a secret thing. You should get it.

Read about history and antrophology

Roberta: No I definitely I wouldn't have any secret secret thing. I always try to read a lot of things that are not. Service Design related especially lately because yeah, I've always found myself more in the needs of understanding topics about society in general.

So a bit maybe outside the practice, but more books written by anthropologists or yeah, talking about how our. Society is evolving. IF I have to go back to service design and suggest something closer. I think all the recent publications around system thinking, we see basically a new one every day.

I think it's a hot topic, but actually you can find the interesting interesting readings there. I'm, yeah,

Daniele: I'm very interested because this is I think that I see many of us go through, we start being very passionate about service design and reading a lot about that.

And as age and and and maturity goes, we opened the door of the garden to, to other fields. And so what's like the, maybe one or two last books, which are absolutely not. In the world of service design that you said, Oh, this really made me passionate, curious about.

Other ways of seeing the world.

Roberta: There is I don't know if it's okay for the type of audience, but one that I've been reading recently is from an Italian writer. It is called The Game, the book. The writer is Alessandro Baricco. And basically it was a sort of yeah, writer, scenographer. I'm a philosopher in a certain way in Italy.

Basically the book is about the evolution of technology from the creation, the moment in which the internet was born till now and the beginning of the AI era. And what I liked of the book is that there is always a judge, judgmental part of us when we look back or, and we look at what we are doing now.

And there is always the narrative of about things were way better before. And also sometimes when we look at younger generations, but also ourselves in front of the computer and the Smartphone all day. There is the perception that things couldn't go more wrong in a way. And while at the end there are a lot of aspects in what we are doing every day that are somehow created or related to a need that we have of maybe independence or expressing ourselves in a certain way, etc.

So I think it's interesting to reflect on our digital and behaviors with technology in a way that is less judgmental and more realistic about who we are and the... And I think the big learning is that we can change the situation, humanity in a way that we want to build, especially in these days in which we see what could change with AI and what we are trying to envision what is coming next.

I think a big learning is that what is coming next depends on from what we want in a way and what we... what we feel that we need to shape for us and for the next generation after. So I think in this moment I would suggest any kind of book also in not from Italian writers necessarily, but that is talking about responsibility, story of technology, evolution, and how to approach the usage of AI in in the next generation of services.

Daniele: Yeah. So you're giving us a very good call to action, which is step back a little bit. Maybe stop a little bit the judgmental self to just see things how they are without saying it's bad or good, but just seeing how they are. And then from there, seeing what could be the opportunities for the future.

And what's the future, what are the futures with us that we'd like maybe to shape based on that without. Saying today we really suck at it we're, but or this is the, it's saving the world. But more okay. How can we go further with it and also this break of saying, let's go back in history and see how is it that we are today here.

And for that, historians are often the best guides that can help us to see. Oh, there are a few reasons why we ended here and and the motivations are a bit different than the end result. And that's also always a very interesting. Awesome. I'd like to say a big thank you.

How to help Roberta

Daniele: But I know people are very curious about you and the work that you do with with OBLO.

and also with the servicedesigntools. org website and your teaching. If you had one call to action to share to people watching this video what would it be? Maybe that people get in touch with you or is there anything else that you'd like people to act related with your

Roberta: work? I think, yeah, just keep following OVLO because my team is is amazing and I'm sure they will contribute farther to the growth of the community and the conversations related to these interesting topics we have been discussing.

And also because we need support in general, I think it's not easy to be an independent After in the fields in which we are in the field in which we operate, we are proud of our choices so far, but it's not always easy. So I think feeling that people will appreciate or in general follow our work is always a good reward, let's say, for all the effort.

Daniele: So we heard it very clear, which is. We have a call to action as a community, which is support your local artisans, if we can say it like that, your local services and artisans. Share some love with the Oblo team, watch their work, follow their work, share it further. And one thing which is important is...

Give them the lovely feedback, just even if it's just saying, I saw your work, even just writing that it means a lot when you're in the trenches doing the hard work. And definitely do that. I think the team will enjoy it. And obviously, if you have more words to share than that. Do it, but I think it's more than deserved from the upload team to get this appreciation your feedback and even having it shared further.

Roberta: Thank you. Thanks a lot.

Daniele: Awesome. I'm already excited to see all the love letters that you will get in your office or per LinkedIn or per your contact form. And I will write mine right after that. For sure. And in my love letter, which I will make one part already public, which is

Closing words

Daniele: thank you so much, Roberta to you also to your team, because I've been in touch with a few people of your team in the past and you're very good at surrounding yourself by lovely people.

And and I see that and you've done that very well. And again, a big thank you for spending the time in reading the book spending the time with me today. And also for sharing all your knowledge with the community and being a pioneer that leads by example.

Roberta: Thank you. It's been A pleasure really to take some time at the end of the day to reflect on what we do and in general to get in touch with you as well after a lot of writing and exchanges at distance.

So thank you. Thanks

Daniele: so much and have a lovely evening. Bye-Bye. You

Roberta: too. Bye bye-Bye.

Turki Fageera is the founder of SIGMA Innovation Engine and the author of an upcoming book on innovation and design mindsets.

Turki is a service design practitioner on a mission to empower the next 1 million innovators in the Saudi Arabia region.

Turki has extensive experience in building services for the public sector, having worked for several ministries. These include, for example, the ministries of Health, Media, Housing, Culture, Economy and Planning, Finance, and Tourism in Saudi Arabia.

Turki’s links

• Company website: Sigma Innovation Engine

• Turki’s Personal website

• Turki’s Instagram Profile

• Turki’s Linkedin Profile

With Turki we discussed the whole book and revealed some of its missing lenses.

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• How teaching Service Design can give kids the courage to change their environment

• How tools and practices need to be adapted to the culture you’re living in

• The three levels of Service Design practice

• Service Design in Saudi Arabia

• How to stay motivated in an environment where “no” is the default answer

Books to build confidence

• Creative Confidence

• Steal Like An Artist

• Show Your Work!

• Superhuman By Design

Books to enter the world of Service Design

• This is Service Design Thinking

• This is Service Design Doing

Frameworks

• Digital Experience Maturity Index for Government Services from the Saudi Arabia Governement

TED talk

The first secret of design is ... noticing with Tony Fadell

Made with AI

This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Introduction

Daniele Catalanotto: Hi Turki! I'm so excited to have you here today.

Turki Fageera: Pleasure to be here, Daniele. I'm so happy to be part of this book review and I've been a fan of your previous two books and happy to bring whatever I can do, to launch this amazing project. Thanks so

Daniele Catalanotto: much. We live in different worlds you being in Saudi, me being in Switzerland, but at the same time, we're in very same worlds, being in the service design world Saudi being very touristic, Switzerland being very touristic too, we have a bit of the same language.

And so I'm excited to see what will be the differences, in our cultures and in our approaches to service design. But also what are the common things that we feel like these are just international common things of humans all around the world. So I'm super

Turki Fageera: excited about that.

The Universality of Service Design

Turki Fageera: You'll be surprised, Daniele, how people are extremely...

Connected, and especially as service designers, most of the services that people are complaining with or actually give them joy are triggered by the same things. So being universal designers at this time and phase is very important and honestly, one of the reasons why I was excited to be here is because I was able to connect and get inspired by some of the stories that you have just mentioned in all of your books.

It's the same pain, it's the same excitement and the same experience that everybody can actually have in any part of the world.

Daniele Catalanotto: Yeah, so maybe let's start with that, in the, everywhere in the world, we do one thing, which is we have birthday parties and we have parties. When you arrive in a birthday party and you don't know everybody, there is a guy coming to you and say, Hey, who are you by the way? How do you present yourself to

Turki Fageera: that person?

Meet Turki

Turki Fageera: Okay, so I have four kids of my own and we have lots of birthdays happening throughout the year, so I think I got these questions a lot.

I always start, by focusing on not what you have done before but more about what you can do in the future. What are your aspirations and dreams? What is your mission? Because it's very difficult to define ourselves as experts in the innovation or service design field because these words are not as popular, I think, in the job industry.

So I always start by saying that I solve problems, simply. I'm in the business of problem solving and creating amazing experiences. Building innovators while I'm gone and I get the follow up question, what do you mean by that? Yeah, exactly. What do you mean by that? Trying to explain what do we do.

Daniele Catalanotto: And I'm very curious because you have one of these. These are just resumes, who, who would make anyone jealous, it's like a, it's like a super long list of positions and and experiences. Could you maybe just highlight a few, which you think, made a big difference in your in how you think today about the work in service design and the work you're doing?

And maybe just give us a bit of a highlight. You told me a word, which is, you have a new word that you're using about what you're doing today. And I'm quite curious if you could share more about that.

Career Journey and Influence of Service Design

Turki Fageera: So I think I've been born and raised in a service design family, some sort of. So my father used to work as a flight attendant in the airline industry.

He used to travel a lot, definitely. And he was always. He was sharing stories whenever he comes back from a trip I met these people, I met somebody new we had this incident in the airplane, and I was really fascinated by the notion that he was able to meet people from all over the world, from different cultures.

That actually was very inspiring for me, so my first job was actually in the aviation and airline business. And I was in developing digital services and the IT teams that were able to design services for booking experience, understanding the whole journey of passengers. iT gave me this, I think access to the notion of front and behind and back this backstage the notion of front and backstage where.

I was able to get into the airport's hidden areas and be able to interact with people and understanding their pains and challenges.

Service Design in Saudi Arabia

Turki Fageera: I started from there and then I, Saudi has suddenly started to change within Vision 2030. Announcements and this is I think it was the right time for me to start working and focus into innovation and service design.

Through that amazing journey, we were able to build innovation labs, innovation capabilities, and help many entities redesign their services and offerings. And we have amazing stories, so I started by providing design as a service, as a design agency.

And now I'm at this stage where I think design is more about creating Quality of life and more about creating economical value. So how can we use design as an engine to start and build new companies? Especially in Saudi, we're focusing on tourism. We're opening up to the world and we need everybody who visits Saudi to have an amazing memory, amazing interactions, and we have an amazing heritage to share.

We're also investing a lot in the cultural fields, in movies, music, art. And again we can use service design and innovation management and design thinking and product design to export our culture to the world. Because from my humble experience, I've seen that there are so many commonalities.

And people still don't know the amazing stuff that is happening here in Saudi. So it's been a bumpy ride and I think now we're ready to show the world our amazing experiences and services. Yeah,

Daniele Catalanotto: I feel, we live this quite similar thing where often for me seeing service design in Switzerland, I'm like.

But we have so much to offer to the world, because we have this culture of hospitality. I've heard also same stories from Saudi, people coming back and telling me, Oh, these guys, they have the same level of care. Even more than us. It's wow, this is so interesting.

And and I think there, there are really interesting things that, that sometimes we have, we can have a, an an obligation to be part of the people showing to the world. Yes, we have a culture, we have an heritage. And we know a lot about that. Not just because we're service designers, but because we're citizens of our country in some way.

Turki Fageera: Exactly. And I think it's very important as well. sInce you got this decision to open up to the world. and invite people to your home country, to your hometown. You need as well to match your level of experience design and service delivery and definitely throughout that journey and throughout those touch points, you have these unique interactions where people can know you more in depth and understand the things behind those drivers, the things behind those interactions.

When we say hello salamu alaykum marhaba, the tone of voice, even if we're speaking in Arabic, you can really sense the hospitality, you can really sense the depth of the welcoming even though it's in a different language. So there is this universal language of design. That I I'm seeing it happening, growing and getting much more mature in everywhere I'm I visit here and it's the right time to, to start rethinking, redesigning and improving.

And I think there's no better time and place than Riyadh and Saudi.

Daniele Catalanotto: So interesting. And you said a word that I'm very curious about, which is maturity. You said it's a mature time now. So how would you rate or evaluate the maturity of service design in Saudi at the moment? Would you say it's a, it's like you're, uh, it's growing, it's at a peak.

It's just before it's starting. Where do you see

Turki Fageera: it? dEfinitely it is growing. It is getting much more mature.

The Role of Government in Service Design

Turki Fageera: The beauty about it is that each government entity today and it's been led by the government. The word beneficiary experience, the word citizen experience, the word digital maturity designing for humans is being circulated every time a government official or a new public service is being deployed.

The same in the government and in the private companies as well who are competing. So we have been noticing and seeing these words circulating around a lot Saudi One of the most sophisticated digital infrastructure, which allowed us to jump years in advance and getting the latest cutting edge technologies and put a layer on that.

And I always refer back to the COVID situation. When it happened government didn't stop and services didn't stop. And everybody was able to get... The best experience as possible hospitality culture, tourism, and even the medical field. We have definitely seen a significant enhancements and improvements that really affected the quality of life.

Again, we are opening up to the world, we want people to come, we want investors, entrepreneurs and premium residents to come and live. I think that was an important part. There is recently a Digital Service Maturity Index that was launched and each government entity has to be measured within that metric through the digital government agency.

And it shows that there is this deliberate actions toward improving service citizen experience. It's super

Daniele Catalanotto: interesting this notion that the government is a big force. In pushing it, and seeing how powerful it is. This is something that I've seen also, for example, in the UK, where, the government is putting a lot of standards that then the private world says, Oh, this is something that we're going to borrow, because it's super interesting.

And and I see here This idea of how can the government, be a force also that, that pushes it.

The Importance of Resilience in Service Design

Daniele Catalanotto: And another thing that I find extremely interesting in what you said is this idea that good services are resilient. When the service is really well made, you put a COVID on it. Sure, it's going to, it's going to go through some stress, obviously, but it's not going to shut down completely, and it's not going to just fall.

And this is a quite interesting idea, saying are our services, resilient enough? Also for crisis

Turki Fageera: types. Exactly. I think, yeah so COVID was a good stress test for governments. Governments has the mandate to orchestrate, to legislate to design in multiple levels from public policies to daily interactions.

Yet I think two key words that happened in Saudi throughout the past few years was digital transformation. Bringing the best infrastructure and tailoring and enabling the entire ecosystem to design amazing services on top of that infrastructure. So we have, I can't recall anything that we do today is not fully automated.

Let's take, for example, the the simple renewal of any government papers. Your ID card, your passports. We have an amazing platform called Abshir and 30 million people use it every day. And you can actually renew and receive any public papers official papers, certifications or whatever.

and get it delivered at your doorsteps in less than 24 hours. All payments are being digitized, and all interactions are being digitized. Yet I think that notion, it's only digital, might lead us to forgetting about the importance of design, deliberately, and making conscious decisions that design and digital...

Goes hand to hand. Yeah, I'm very proud of what we have accomplished in the region so far. So for people... Maybe this is a good good push for you to pay us a visit soon.

Daniele Catalanotto: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm super interested. And I've already received a few invitations. Obviously with family, it was a bit hard these days, but but the next one I might say, Oh I can pass it for work this time.

Maybe.

Turki Fageera: Definitely.

Daniele Catalanotto: I think it's super interesting because here for me, what I see is that. In some countries we have this conversation, oh, this is not possible, it's not possible to have that level of good digital services in government, because it's government, and then having examples like Saudi, and people being able to go and see and hear the stories and say, oh, it's possible, and then it changes the conversation from it's not possible to.

Why can't we do it now, and then seeing, okay, there are things that we need to change there because it's possible. And I think this kind of unlocks a door. And I'm so grateful, for all the countries who are able to do that, as examples. Estonia is, I think, also a very good example in that, where each time you go there, you're like, Oh, we have so much to learn, we still, we think we're in advance, every country always believes that they are the best in something.

And then when you go outside, you say, Oh, maybe we still have a few things to learn, which is a very good thing.

Turki Fageera: There is always room to improve, definitely. And we always, have that cross pollination. So I think Estonia in particular was a great benchmark. When Saudi started its digital transformation but now if you didn't have the will to push the very complicated system, governments, is not as easy as it sounds, right?

So it's a very interconnected, very complicated ecosystem. Yet what I think the beauty is that Saudi, by the way, is like 75%. Under the age of 30 and 35, so it's a young country and people came who are well educated and we have a a young leadership that supports that, and I, and many meetings that I've been with government officials, there was always this language that what if and we can do it and there's no excuses so that pressure enabled people to move faster than before.

Yes, I know that it's not easy to transform, but 20, 10 years ago, we didn't have such leadership, so I think it's like waves, and now we are living a very amazing way, but we should learn from each other, we should share more stories we should talk and explain and And invite each other to share those stories publicly because once we share it, there is no, the sky is the limit, I think, for those ideas to pick up with someone else, another government, another country, and people can do much better.

And this is how we grow as human beings.

Daniele Catalanotto: Stories are powerful. Stories are definitely powerful.

Discussion on the Upcoming Book

Daniele Catalanotto: And that gives me a very good transition to the next bit that I'd like to speak with you about, which is so you read the book the next book coming on, which is Services and Principles 301 to 400. So it's the fourth book in that series.

And so you've read it. Was there something particular that you said, Oh, this is

Turki Fageera: interesting.

So before I give you my feedback, I think I want to have a deal with you first that we're going to translate these books into Arabic. Let's do that. So let's sign that deal and let's have that agreement.

But this is a proof that I really enjoyed your books and I would love more people from different languages, from a different spectrum of the world to read that.

Everyday Service Design

Turki Fageera: So the beauty about these series is that and being as honest as possible, is that it really speaks none to the technical people, because most of the books in service design is about the tools, the techniques maybe on how to actually deploy it. There is a very important part is building the mindset and finding a sweet spot where anybody can relate to the power of service design.

Services are a huge part of our daily lives. It is universal. It is what makes or breaks our day. So I really love that it is very simple. The language is using you're sharing your personal stories. The illustrations are giving more context but what I really liked about your books is that you end up each chapter or each principle with an action question.

it's a food for thought. It's something that you can ensure that your ideas and books are being transferred to somebody's own mind. So they're not just reading and consuming. You're actually pushing us to have an action, to question things and to relate those principles to our personal careers or our personal lives.

So this is in general, I love the structure I'm gonna steal some of those ideas myself. And I love that it is, it's digestible. You said this is a toilet reading book in the beginning. I think it is our responsibility today as practitioners to make such information and such knowledge relatable, uh, digestible, and easy for people to consume, even if they're not practitioners in service design.

Because everybody has a role in making services and experiences better.

Daniele Catalanotto: It's this thing where as service design becomes more mature, we're going from very academic, to then more tools based, and then suddenly we're doing kind of this transition to. Every day, service design, where we say, Hey, if you're throwing a party, it's service design.

You're thinking about how how do I select the time, so that in my culture, people come at the right time. So for example, for Swiss people, it's saying come at this time, zero, zero. And that people will be there 15 minutes before, and it's okay. But if I'm doing that in Italy, I say, okay, guys, let's come at eight.

And I know everybody will be there on time and it's fully okay. But you have to think about all of these things. You're thinking, what are the types of chips that I put so that people feel comfortable speaking to each other? It's a lot of decision. You're making a service. And here there is this. I think it's not an unmet need, I think there are many people trying to, working on that and we're just adding a little part on it, which is saying, what if we can, and we come back to the what if question, what if anybody just used these principles?

Which are good for parenting, they help you to try things and try things out with your kid and see what sticks. They are good for solving mental health problems that you might have, being able to visualize what you have in your head. And it's not so much about the tools, it's about ways of thinking.

It's possible, there are other ways to do it. And I'm so happy that you saw that in the book. This difference which is not, it's not a, it's not a tools book, it's not an academic book. It's a toilet down to earth book for everyone. And so that's a, that's the gift of the day. Thank you so much

Turki Fageera: for seeing that.

Thank you so much. As you just mentioned, I think we are all service and experience designers whether we realize it or not. As long that we are delivering interactions or designing interactions with each other every day. If we have, that paradigm shift that we have control of the emotions of those interactions, of the quality of those moments then I am a service designer.

A term that I've been using here with everybody who joins our workshops or training programs in South East. Everybody so basically you're saying that everybody has the right to become a universal designer. So imagine if a doctor a pediatrician, somebody who interacts with kids every day, realizes that mindset that I am designing this interaction with those kids or those patients.

If me or you with your kids every day when you go back home, you can control the emotions. Of your kids, even if you had the worst day ever, you can wear that mask and have a big smile and design that interaction. I think this is the deepest level of being a service designer is that we really want to create impactful moments by design to the people we interact with.

And it's agnostic to any I think it's agnostic to any specialty. To any background, to any age any gender it is about... Authentic experiences, simply.

The three levels of Service Design practice

Daniele Catalanotto: What you're saying reminds me of of another book that I read about mental health. It's the Headspace Guide. Maybe you know the Headspace app?

Yes. And there is, so the founder wrote a book about the method and he explains, that basically for meditation. But you could replace the word renovation by service design and it fits perfectly. Basically, there are three levels. It says there is the mindset level, which is you have to understand how it works.

You have to change a bit your way of thinking about things. That's the first level. Then there is the practice level, which is made in a specific context. For meditation, it's you sit, you do 10 minutes, you've done your meditation, you go on with work and life. And then there is the everyday life level, where what you're doing in meditation that suddenly becomes a part of all your life, where for meditation it means when you're eating more mindfully.

When you're with your kids, you're enjoying that moment where you're playing ball and you're not thinking about your calendar, and so for me it's really thinking about these three elements, I think we're really good at principles, that we are really good at that, we're really good at using service design in the work context, but then in the everyday life, it's there it starts to be a bit more challenging.

The importance of mindsets to create a common language

Turki Fageera: I think so. And yeah, we're very good with principles. And yet, in real life scenarios, as service providers in the corporate world, in the business definitely there are those silos and those this is mine and this is yours and roles and responsibilities and blah, blah, blah. Yet, I think once we invest as much as we can into the mindset, um, into, Acknowledging and seeing with a different lens that there is another world and interesting intangible experiences and services.

At least you will do is supporting those designers once they're working. At least you can observe the beauty, what I love about your book is that somehow you reprogrammed your mind into seeing those small interactions that is not related. Whenever you interact with something, and this is a powerful tool, is that you have been noticing now, because you, and relating that to your book and actually this is how we learn.

The mind is an amazing comparison tool. so Once we have that common language, at least at the, as service designers and service providers, we need everybody to know the principles, to know the mindsets, to enable us to have a common language, to have a common ground. Not necessary to practice the tools and this is maybe another level or another step in the way.

But investing in that common languages and the paradigm shift is very important.

Daniele Catalanotto: So what you're saying is, if I'm getting you right, is saying that people don't, not everybody needs to have all the three levels. There are people who just need to understand like the key principles. So that they can have a shared language, which then makes work easier for those who have to do the work.

And then there are the crazy ones who say, Oh, how can I use that in my family and stuff? And but recognizing that. We have still to start with the principles and sharing them to a very wide audience, also inside the organization so that we have that shared language where we say, Hey, it is possible, changing their language from I, I'm stealing the thing that your government says from we cannot to what if, these kinds of little changes that are very strong And that are a bit of the basic of our work.

Important mindset shifts for service design

Daniele Catalanotto: Might I ask, what would be for you, maybe two or three of these big mindset shifts? We have this, we cannot to what if? Do you see other things like that, that you find very important? For example, when you're doing your workshops, when you're doing venture scaling and this kind of stuff. What are the elements that you say, these are important shifts?

That you need to consider.

Turki Fageera: I always use this. I'm trying, part of my life mission is something called creating innovators. I'm on this mission to build 1 million innovators in our region. And innovators are problem solvers, are designers after all. I always start with having that.

We all face the same pain every day. We have the same issues, whether in the street, in the school, at work. So you need to find, in the beginning, a common ground where everybody can relate and say, aha, yes, I have been there. And now I'm telling them, you need to start thinking with your hands and start building things and prototyping.

And they need to go through the process of. Seeing what you are seeing. Otherwise, you're going to be just giving them theories and something that they can't relate to. I always go to this question, what's in it for me? Why should I give you my time, my energy, my focus to believe in service design? To believe in innovation, to believe in all of those terminologies and design thinking.

And especially that we... As service designers, we are always working on mostly intangible experiences that people cannot really materialize, right? So it is about those emotions, those moments, those tips. If people doesn't, don't see what's in it for them and see that they can... Use these tools to make their lives better, to make their community better.

From my humble experience, nobody would give me their time and attention. So they need to see a flavor of it. They need to see uh, to hear stories as we mentioned in the beginning. To correlate and connect the dots. Because it's about giving them a new eyeglasses, a new perspective to see daily issues as opportunities.

To switch from being a victim, from being reactive, from being proactive, even if that was a 1 percent improvement. Maybe it could be an idea, maybe it could be a word, maybe it could be an initiative, or maybe it could be a public policy from a governmental level. It's the notion and the mindset that we need to invest a lot and that's what I'm mainly about today.

The power of teaching Service Design principles early

Turki Fageera: Especially when it comes to the education part and the capability building part. So imagine if kids actually started learning those principles at school, if they actually started redesigning their room class their classroom and their daily schedule and embedding those that you are a superhero, that you are the you're not the victim here.

You have the capability, you have the superpower to make our life better through

Daniele Catalanotto: design. Yeah, and, there was always for me this thing where... Learning philosophy in in school was for me very important because, it taught me how to think, but then learning design, learned me how to create kind of power and freedom for myself, where, it's this very interesting, this element that you're saying, going from, it's like it is I can't change stuff from, let's try, let's, and then comes also one thing, which is very interesting, especially in education, which is you tried, it didn't work, it's even worse than you thought, and then having a sense of responsibility and saying, okay, it's not so easy after all.

So now you can be also a bit more, because when you're doing service design work, I think every time I go in a cafe, now. I'm so grateful for the guy who thought about all the details, because I know all the work that has been done, but where

Turki Fageera: you appreciated more because now you

Daniele Catalanotto: can see it, you can indeed.

And I think this is so interesting, because it's not just giving power to people, but it's also giving back a sense of respect for the work of others, because you realize, oh, in most of what's happening today. There is someone who made decisions who tried to do something nice. And obviously, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work, but still, I can recognize that there was effort being made and I can, I still can be grateful for that.

I think

Turki Fageera: such principles as well is, can give people the courage to try, to fail. We live in a very, it's a difficult time today for climate change, war, with discriminations happening, with political issues and so on. Yet, if we... I think as practitioners, as designers, we should be hopeful we, because we have this confidence that, I always said that to my team I don't know what are we going to do next or how are we going to solve this problem, but I have this confidence that we're going to figure it out together.

I have this confidence that we have the mindset, the tools that we can reach out to each other and try and figure it out. And we are always responsible of giving our best. We're not responsible of seeing the results. And that lowers up the the burden as well. We need more problem solvers. We need more people who have the courage to try.

And I really believe that sharing and preaching about those principles. allows people to contribute regardless of the depth of their contribution or the weight of it is some sort of contribution. And this is how we make our societies better. I might sound a bit philosophical, but it is.

The key essence of design leadership and design education is working first in the mindsets.

Profound optimism and Service Design

Turki Fageera: I will

Daniele Catalanotto: do the same joke that my wife did with me, but to you, which is, my wife said it like that. She said, in the world, most people see the glass, uh, half empty. Then she says, she sees the world as being the glass.

And then she says, so I'm going to replace it with your name, Turki, that there is a glass and that you can do a lot with a glass, you can put it like that and oh, now you hear the Austrian, you can put it in front and now you see another world, and if there is water or not, it's not so important, I can do a lot with just a glass.

Different. And so I see you have this deep optimism where it's not just about the water, it's about all of the rest. Where you see, hey, there is a world of possibilities and we can be very excited about it. Exactly.

Turki Fageera: It's about how do we see things. We can either be pessimistic and stop and leave everything go to hell.

Or you can actually say, no we should teach. We should change. We should try our best. And if services touches we interact with services all day long, it's, it's contributes to 70 percent or more in the global GDP. And every startup today, every business, every government is a service provider, whether we like it or not, we all live in a service industry and we all have a part and responsibility to make those services better.

So how can we teach those principles to as many people as possible?

Daniele Catalanotto: And I'm seeing you're on a mission to do that and I'm so excited that that there are people like you doing it.

The bad stuff

Daniele Catalanotto: I'm going to switch gears a little bit. So now we've been, in this very optimistic and and and philosophical bit.

Let me see what's a part of the book where you say, Daniele, I see you've done your best, but let me help you. There are things where I can help you improve it even more. What are things where you see in the book where you say, this, I don't agree with it. And here's another take that will be interesting for the readers.

Change is harder than you think

Turki Fageera: mAybe I would go to some of the mainly I would say change, the change part. I think I'm really interested into that because reality is a bit difficult yes, speaking about innovation, design, creativity, and we need to be. As positive as we can, yet we are constrained with time, budget, organizational cultures, resistance The word that I really hate is quick wins and low hanging fruits while design requires patience Requires collaboration, it's a team effort, it's a team sport and maybe our schooling and education taught us to be as individuals as possible, right?

In the part where you spoke about habits it's very important to not overwhelm people that these are very complicated principles. oR that it is not related to every culture. I really believe that there is the basic human drivers like fear, ego, and personal agendas are always going to be there.

How can we add to the principles some provoking scenarios or some provoking real life cases? WHere people can actually, where people actually face resistance and face the big no word and how they can deal with it, actually, because we face lots of negativities and lots of no's every day.

And I know so many service designers who are fragile or they are creatives, they are they can't actually accept critique, they can't actually accept the word no. So how can we have, in that particular section, Some of those extra stories or extra how might we questions or the call to action questions that they can actually use it and convert it by themselves into tactics that they can use this second day, the next day when they go back to work.

Daniele Catalanotto: From what I'm hearing, you're saying change isn't, a honeymoon. It's the phase after the honeymoon, where when you come back. So the question here which which giving is this idea that change isn't always easy. Sometimes it happens that it is, sometimes it happens that it is not. And how can we create the patience when people are faced with no no, and no, again, do you have examples?

How to stay motivated when change is hard

Daniele Catalanotto: Do you have personal stories where. These helps you when you were faced in these situations where people didn't want to change. People weren't happy to go there. And what did you do? How did you, for yourself, create the patience and the courage to continue?

Turki Fageera: That's a very tough one. Being a design advocate, especially here in Saudi.

When we started, nobody was speaking this language. We had a transformation, we had mandates to deliver. iF you're gonna speak about design as something fancy and something nice to have, nobody will actually. People, from my experience, was, I need to give them a reason to believe. Let's start small, let's prove that this works.

I'm going to connect with your mandates. I'm going to connect with your KPIs. I'm going to help you be and achieve your personal agendas and personal goals. Even though and this is maybe something else is that when it comes to the tools, um, I think, especially here in the region, we have actually curated our own frameworks, our own hacks into the design sprints, for example, into the design thinking methodologies that it doesn't really click.

With the culture here. People here are not very patient. We need to see results. We're very hungry to to feel and touch and and see things. So having small victories and small outcomes and small results was very important. So most of the, I would go and refer back to the principles that Yes, it is about the daily interactions, teach me something while I wait repeat the key information and so on.

It didn't click with me that, how can I interact with my boss who is refusing my creative ideas? How can I interact with a decision maker who is resisting the importance of fixing that poor interaction or procedures in the service? How can we switch more into the reality of day to day work and making those quick reason to believe and make it more practical maybe, or convertible into actions?

Serve first as people want you to serve them

Daniele Catalanotto: I really relate to. This idea of when you're faced with people who are in the know, the best thing to do often is say, okay, it's no. Let's agree on that. So now I have a bit of free time.

How can I help really? Where would it be really helpful? And then this gives you the opportunity to be helpful in something that they feel is helpful, but at the same time, you do it with the mindset shifts that you bring. And you're, and basically it's a troyan horse where people say, we want this. We don't want that one.

And you just punt the one in the horse. And it comes with it.

Turki Fageera: Yeah, let's be realistic, people need results and they have their own agendas. They don't care about the help. It's our it's our responsibility as a designer to maybe put it in a Trojan horse, as you mentioned to give it whatever labels we need to shift it and tweak it.

But we need to answer to some metrics now and be a bit pragmatic and mean balancing between being super, uh, optimistic and super nice and super creative into being realistic and we can deliver tangible results. Outcomes, and we need to make our bosses look good as well. We are, all of us are actually wearing two hats.

We are a consumer, a customer, but we are also service designers. Going back to the, so I'm referring as well as much as I can to the book to give it as was in context, is that sometimes some of the advices is about me as consumer. More than than me as a designer as well. And I see why, I see the differences, I see the balance between that.

It is, it's actually speaking to both. So you're giving the story as a beneficiary or as a customer, but you're telling me to give to give, for example, I think one that stuck with my head was the teach me something While I'm waiting, I think which is, makes sense, yes. How can we reduce waiting time and all of the pain that happens inside it?

You made me feel the pain and you told me how to maybe think and bring something to fill that gap. The final part, which is the call to action, is very important to, to have an action tomorrow. I'm bringing that part from this region where people are really not patient. They need to see something tomorrow.

And they live in that every day, when I convince somebody we need to revamp the whole app, and we need to go and do ethnographic and design research, and field surveys, and mystery shoppers. Most of the people tell me, okay, but they have a mandate tomorrow so we have to somehow hijack the system and do it the wrong way so we can deliver something and earn some trust, uh, so we can have the freedom to do it our way.

It's not a critique, by the way it's really recognizing

Daniele Catalanotto: the different dimensions and

Turki Fageera: depth in the book. And they love that about it,

Daniele Catalanotto: yes.

The missing lens in the book

Daniele Catalanotto: I like how you're seeing that there is something missing in the book. Fortunately, there is always a new book coming, which is very good. And one thing that you wish for is saying, What if there was a bit more of the lens of how, as a service design professional or someone using service design at work, how can I also use it with my boss, how can I use it with interactions that I have?

to, how can I make it easier when people are saying no to what I'm trying to bring? How can I make that?

Help your boss look good

Daniele Catalanotto: You touched on on, on a few principles that I'd like to highlight here, which I find very interesting. One which is which is a bit weird. It sounds a bit weird when I say it like that, but help me look good.

As a boss, I'm the boss, even as a boss, I still have a boss. And I still have a wife at home who asks me, what did you do today? And I have to answer that question every fucking day. And so help me answer that question by giving me, the highlights, not the whole, the thing, but the little thing where you say, Oh, this is super exciting.

This is great. And so that this person who is the boss can take that and give it further. This is a thing that I did back in the days when I was in an agency, each time my boss came he came in and at the moment he came in, I was, I said something like, Oh, this is so cool. This is so cool.

And. And he came in and then came back and said, what is so cool? Oh, sorry. I'm just working on a thing. I don't have time right now, but it's so cool. I have to show it to you after. And then what happens is that it goes back and it comes back and says, can you show it to me now? Yeah, for sure. So this is the thing.

And it's Robert who did it, and then basically you're giving the, you're helping the team sell a bit of their work, but with excitement. And by, with this excitement, you're giving a bit like the gift of excitement and say, this is something really cool that you now can share further. And now you can look good with your client, with your other boss, with your wife, with your

Turki Fageera: friends.

It's a universal principle, people need to fulfill their egos and hierarchies and so on.

The potential for Service Design in the workplace

Turki Fageera: I think there is this study that we spend like 80, 000 hours working from graduation to retirement, or I think our generation is actually doing much more. So work and dealing with colleagues and dealing with bosses and our bosses is a huge part of our lives and we spend like those nine to fives or whatever or even more so I would love to see more of that, to see more of those tactics and questions that provokes and making our work life much better and help us.

Produce and design better.

Daniele Catalanotto: Indeed. And I think the workplace is definitely a part which where we all can be service designers, with designing our own workplace.

Go beyond the emotional titles

Daniele Catalanotto: And and even if we say stuff like. Make me look good, which is a bit of a provocative way. We can then frame it also in the very interesting way, which is to say, when you give stuff to people to look good, basically what you're doing is you're highlighting what are the most important parts.

Because usually the part that makes me look good is usually also the part which is the impact part. Which is not the process part, but which is the part where you say, we did this. And now we had this so much sales or we did this and the customer wrote us a beautiful letter, and obviously there is a process to it.

There is all of that, but it helps us to translate, to think about how can I show the impact instead of. The messy process, which is maybe a bit less

Turki Fageera: interesting. I love the provocative questions and the language that you're using. I use that sometimes as well. It really resonates and you can remember it much, much better than a very straightforward question.

Yet how can people, especially people who skim books... And might read it, maybe sometimes they misinterpret it or use it unethically or whatever. So I think what you just mentioned can actually help that. The why and the rationale of why choosing that provocative question.

Daniele Catalanotto: Yeah, indeed. It's always a danger with this kind of stuff.

If someone takes one of my books and just reads the titles, It's gonna be a fucked up world after. But fortunately, people have patience with me and they usually read a bit more on that.

Recommended resources

Daniele Catalanotto: And I'd love to ask what are... Resources things that you say, this would be very interesting for people who are interested in service design, maybe you read that book you say, these are other takes, things which are very a bit different, but would complement well reading that book, can be a video, can be an article,

Turki Fageera: anything.

Recommended books

Turki Fageera: From books I always start with the basics. whEre I think it's very important to build our creative confidence, so there's this book that's called Creative Confidence Austin Kleon books Steal Like an Artist Show Your Work, and so on. It was very inspiring books for somebody who wants...

tO have more confidence in their creativity. A nice book that I like is Superhuman by Design where it's actually, I use that a lot, that designers are superheroes. Tony Fadel has an amazing TED talk and I remember that scene where he was speaking about the small labels in the apples. and how when he grew up. So I think also designers should be able to think about the small details, but have the ability to elevate as a helicopter a 10, 000 view and going up and down.

So that the talk was very inspiring for me. Definitely the gold books of this is service design thinking and the service design doing is a very good entry. I'll leave a book for anyone who wants to understand more about the tools of service design. And again, you need to practice, you need to try, you need to figure out your own path.

Because there is no right or wrong in design.

The need to adapt tools and frameworks to your culture

Daniele Catalanotto: And I'm very curious because you said that in your culture, you had to change a bit things like the design sprints to be more giving fruits more quickly.

Turki Fageera: Do you have any names of... The five day thing doesn't work here.

Daniele Catalanotto: And so do you have maybe names of people that you say, these are very interesting people who either wrote about it or share how to bring these kind of classical methodologies in a more cultural working way and fast, more for a fast pace.

Turki Fageera: Yeah so this is a contradiction actually. So we need things fast, but we we can't actually do the methodology that enables agility. And I just don't want to generalize it, but for example, we tried the Jknap design sprints, for example, the five day thing.

We stopped with the decision making the hierarchy in some organizations and so on.

So we actually tailored. For example, three levels of design strengths. So we did the small, medium, and large. And enabled having that flexibility based on the based on the challenge, based on the priorities of the CEO, for example, that we're working with. So a one size fits all, which is very nice when it comes to frameworks.

In reality, it doesn't really work, or when you go to the five steps in design thinking I think there is, yeah, if we leave time and creative constraints and budgets, we need to think about frameworks as enablers, and just don't go and follow it as is, and have the courage to tweak it a bit. So for example, we actually took some of the design sprints and design thinking.

Principles. And we created a framework called the Ather Impact which is, can be done in a five day or a day, or can be scaled over a year, for example, if we are building startups in, in different sectors. So I love to think about frameworks as this stretchy, elastic that enables us to squeeze and stretch as much as we can.

But I've seen many practitioners who love to follow as been written in the book or as this is it. I think that's a bit constraining for us and having the courage to speak. Definitely there is something good. Sometimes we emphasize more into maybe validation or the synthesis part or the evidence based.

Why you need to go on lunch tomorrow. So we sometimes sketch those, we launch, and then we learn from those mistakes. But yeah, so simply is having the courage to stretch and manipulate with those frameworks and creating your own.

Daniele Catalanotto: I love that part because I'm also on that side, let's say, of the spectrum of people saying they are recipes, sometimes the recipe is perfect.

Sometimes you say it's my mom coming and she's gluten free. So I need to tweak a few things. Another time, I'm just want to add some spice because it's my dad's coming, and sometimes I say no cookies. Because we're going to do burgers and I completely changed it. I think I love your idea of, squeezing that's a method can be done in one day up to one year, and say it's a starting point, like a recipe, it gives me starting points and it's really useful, but then I need always to think.

Do I keep it like it, or maybe I squeeze it a bit, or I expand it like crazy? I

Turki Fageera: love it. And having that courage and setting expectations, right? That design as a tool is not a magic wand. It won't really solve things like Harry Potter. My kids really love the J. K. Rowling series. Setting expectations is having the courage to reframe, to choose.

People who created frameworks, they did their best, and they did an amazing job to guide, but they had the courage to build that framework in the first place. Designers in real life should have the courage to tweak and add and remove, depending on the context.

Daniele Catalanotto: That's a very powerful call to action I love it.

Come visit Saudi

Daniele Catalanotto: Is there anything else that you'd like to share about on this conversation or elements that you thought about during the conversation that you thought, Oh, I need to speak about that. Did we miss something important that you said that you want?

us to, to just explore a little

Turki Fageera: bit more.

Closing Remarks and Future Plans

Turki Fageera: But my real call to action as somebody who's in this part of the region, who's been witnessing an amazing transformation and have worked and traveled and worked globally in so many cities.

is I really invite you and I invite every designer to come and visit us here in Saudi. We have an amazing culture, we have an amazing level of services and I would love to exchange and see ideas and see how we can really design for humanity and bridge those gaps together. We have amazing places.

I invite you to visit Riyadh, Al Ula, Jeddah. And soon we're going to have Neom as a new innovative city. So I think it's the right place for designers from all over the globe to come and to be part of this amazing change.

Daniele Catalanotto: So we definitely have to organize a tour in your country with you as the guide, definitely. To two or three days and you taking us to places and say, this is what's happening here. Let's go and see. That will be the gift I give for so many people.

Turki Fageera: It will be an absolute pleasure and it will be more than happy to to have you here in Saudi. I've been to Geneva a couple of times, and we stole some ideas especially, in hospitality I know for a fact that there are so many things we can do together. Wonderful.

Get in touch with Turki

Daniele Catalanotto: And so first, a big thank you. It's been a big pleasure. Is there anything that you'd like to shed a light on for people either to follow you or? Do you have something in particular that you'd like to share with people or is there a special way for people to get in touch with you if they're coming to Saudi?

Turki Fageera: Definitely. I'm as reachable as possible. I'm always on Instagram. My account is Turki Fagira or T Fagira. T F A G E R A I hope that I'm responsive in LinkedIn and Instagram. I have my personal website as well. Anybody who's eager to contribute, to collaborate we recently started the new company called Sigma Innovation Engine.

With a mission to create and design impact driven startups and use design as a scalerator for high growth companies in tourism, in culture, in education. And I'm always open for collaborations, always open for, to exchange ideas.

Closing words

Turki Fageera: And I was extremely honored and happy to finally meet you and be part of this discussion.

So thank you so much, Daniele, you took the first step and, I would love that we build this relationship and continue creating impact.

Daniele Catalanotto: Thanks so much to you, Turki, and you heard it. Have a chat with Turki and maybe go visit him because I know he will be in my list of people to visit in Saudi.

Thank you so much for your time and wish you a lovely evening.

Turki Fageera: Stay creative and I hope to see you soon. Bye bye.

Daniele Catalanotto: Bye bye

Ben Reason is a Founding Partner at Livework, the earliest Service Design consultancy in history, and co-authored the books “Service Design: From Insight to Implementation” and “Service Design for Business.”

With Ben we discuss the chapter: “What Are Strange Service Design Rules?”

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• How did the first service design consultancy in history evolve over the years

• Why Service Design might now be mature enough to go into Gonzo mode

• Why making the lives of people harder can be an act of service design and maybe even love

• How today's services can be built with off-the-shelf parts?

• How rules can become creative provocations

Ben’s books

• Service Design: From Insight to Implementation

• Service Design for Business.

More books

• Shampoo Planet by Douglas Coupland

• Being Ecological by Timothy Morton

• Service Dominant Logic: Premises, Perspectives, Possibilities

People

• Joe Macleod and designing ends

• Anne van Lieren on Rational Overrides (Slidedeck, blog article)

• Chelsea Paine who helped redesign the Livework website

Blog article:

• Gonzo service design

Made with AI
This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Daniele Catalanotto: Hello, Ben, it's a pleasure to meet you today. Yeah,

Ben Reason: wonderful to join you. Thank you, Daniele.

Daniele Catalanotto: And it's a pleasure for me to meet you because in some way you are one of the, this is bad, but I will say is, one of the grandfathers of service design, modern service design, if we can call it like that.

Have you ever been

Ben Reason: called that already? I have not. No, that is yeah, I think Godfather maybe would be, feel a little bit less aging.

Daniele Catalanotto: Godfather. Yeah. That might be the word. So excuse my, yes. My French way of expressing that, but yeah it's a big pleasure to meet you today. I have a few questions to get to know you a bit more because we don't know each other yet which is something quite nice.

Meet Ben Reason

Daniele Catalanotto: My first question is how do you present yourself usually when you are in a birthday party? How do you present yourself to other people?

What do you say about your work and what you do?

Ben Reason: Interesting. Good question. I actually met so my little. My five year old has started a new school, so I'm meeting all the new parents, and, I was chatting to one of the dads yesterday and he's what do you do? And I said design, and there's a bit of me that just doesn't want to have to do the whole explain service design to someone.

But it always gets me in a kind of pickle, because then they're like, what kind of design? And you say service. Then you have to dig out some examples. I was actually at a party once and had this situation said Service Design, and the other woman just said, what the fuck is that? It's just, so it's that kind of, it's been 20 years of what the fuck is that?

Daniele Catalanotto: I love how we all have this kind of same conversation, where we try to not say too much about the work we do, because it's like, It's gonna be a long conversation. I'm just here for the drink. It's okay. Exactly. Just tell me you're a pediatrician and I will just... Yeah, if

Ben Reason: you ever do that, just say, yeah, I'm a butcher,

Daniele Catalanotto: I found that the way that saying oh, I'm an educator or a teacher, usually makes the conversation go faster. Okay. And, so this is the thing that you will tell in a birthday party and obviously Daniele would come and say, ah, but you don't know, my mate is one of the guys who created a company, called Livework and and then I would just go out and he would say, and the guy would say, yeah, what's that Livework thing?

And who's that crazy guy?

Ben Reason: Okay. So now I have to describe.

About Livework

Ben Reason: So Livework, we are we're the first. We were the first company to be a pure service design company. We didn't set out to be that, but I think we were. There were other people doing service design, but no one really commercially. So we're pioneers.

We've been around for a long time. We've been all over the world. All over the world and all over the shop in terms of sectors. My colleague Liz sometimes introduces us as working in hoof care and health care, because we did work with one of the world's largest manufacturers of horseshoes once. A long living design consultancy with quite a crazy portfolio.

The evolution of Livework

Daniele Catalanotto: And I'm quite curious, this, you started something maybe not knowing yet that it would be like a historic moment for some of us but how do you keep going, over all these years? Because the market changes relationship changes, client changes how did you continue doing this still today?

Yeah

Ben Reason: but so There are, there's through multiple phases and versions of the thing has the same name, but it's not the same thing, your body sheds all of, replaces all of its cells in a seven year cycle. So it's a bit like that. Yeah, LiveWork has different versions.

I think we're in number five.

Daniele Catalanotto: Okay. And how does number five look different from? From number

Ben Reason: one. Ah, that's that's a big question. So number one was, some 20 somethings who didn't really know what they were doing, but had a lot of intuitive insight and energy. And number five has, is like the opposite.

It's the grandfather of service design. It's like it's got a lot of experience and know how in the bank. And we're trying to figure out how to make better use of that. Feel like there's gold in the... In the Google Drive somehow, but need to get it out into the world.

Daniele Catalanotto: I I feel when I'm looking at least on what the, the public facing part of your company, it's quite interesting to me to see how you're more and more speaking of complexity, system thinking, sustainability also from what I've seen in the last months or so you've gone through a rebrand also from what I've been observing and is there is this something that you really see as a difference from in, in your history that, okay, now you're shifting a bit more towards that, or is it just that it was already, but now you're using that language that is more known and people now have had an understanding for it.

Ben Reason: It's the latter. I think a lot of those things have been. I've been there. The sustainability hope from the very beginning, but that agenda becomes more and more urgent and less possible to put to one side, which I think we, we did for a while. And I've been pushed by the team, who have a need to be doing something.

So yeah, I think the big, say, I think the big change over our existence has been getting more and more cognizant of the organizations or the systems that we are proposing new services for. I think, once we were fairly naive about what it meant to design a service for the people who had to actually make the changes on the inside.

When we set out, so we've worked hard to learn about that and work better with those organizations and teams and individuals and systems. So that's been a kind of deepening journey, but yeah, some of those themes I think it's more like the world feels more ready or it's...

Daniele Catalanotto: And suddenly there is a name for it, it's it's on a much simpler level. It's, like where back in the days we had beards because we were lazy and now we're fashionable. Suddenly it's I didn't try to be fashionable, it's just that I'm still lazy. It feels a bit like that's that you have, you had this thing already going on.

And that's suddenly the language. is there, and obviously the urgency that makes it also more important to communicate around it, even if it was something that you did.

Service Design in different cultures

Daniele Catalanotto: And so I'm quite interested also in you're doing this in multiple countries and I'm coming from a place where we have multiple languages in Switzerland.

And culture is a big is a big driver, is a big, I think that can also slow things and I'm quite interested in. I'm hearing from you. Do you see a difference on, on how culture, service design, these approaches that we have, how they are used differently? I assume, I would imagine that work done in the UK looks very different than work done in South America.

Do you have there? Or do you say, oh no, it's just a common language, it's like the language of love is the language of love. And you still kiss if you are on the North or the South. How do you see that? Yeah.

Ben Reason: That's interesting. I feel like the language is the same, but like you say, the culture that's, that is.

What you're working in is different and they, often the things that you might expect of that culture come through. So we were working for a period, primarily in London and in Norway, and Those two countries have a very different collective idea about what the state is there for and what public services are and how they relate to the world and their politics are very different.

The most of the design within government in the UK is quite transactional in a way. So it's about efficiency and Cost savings, and it's very related to a digital transformation, we can save money by putting driving license applications online to be facetious, but whereas in Norway, the kind of service design almost permeates into the, again, it's much more accepted by the organization.

For example, the Norwegian Department for Health has required service design in any large scale transformation. So rather than, big. Systemic kind of changes rather than efficiency kind of changes. So there's, it feels more accepted at a accepted in a different way or understood in a different way in those two places.

And in the Netherlands, it's a bit more like Norway, but not quite as not quite as much and they have their own, yeah, characteristics. I can't really speak for Brazil. It always feels a bit more it's America, even if it's Latin America, it's more commercially minded over there.

Yeah, I think that, like the tools and the most methods are pretty similar. It's been amazing with Brazil how aligned we are as two teams that have, don't get to collaborate that often. That's very rewarding.

Daniele Catalanotto: It sounds like the. The tools, the ways of working are the same, but the start of the relationship is maybe not the same.

Like dating is different in many cultures, where in America you might go to, to when you say you invite someone, it's, you say it's a date, so it's already very clear, where in Switzerland, it's just, you're going to get the coffee, we don't know if it's a coffee or if it's more than a coffee and the whole thing is about discovering.

So

Ben Reason: the relationship is different and the kind of assumptions around how you. How you migrate. It's as much in the UK, it's harder to put in that long term commercial relationship. Whereas in some, European countries, it's more of a normal thing. It makes more, it's yeah, that's how we work because we, yeah.

Daniele Catalanotto: Super interesting. Thanks so much for this insight. It's always interesting, to hear from other cultures and and and how the relationship to a field also is different, just. Nice question. Just because geography is in another place, and it changes everything, definitely.

Yeah, and and obviously you read the book and I'm quite honored that you take, took the time to read it, and I'd like to, to just transition directly into it.

The good stuff

Daniele Catalanotto: Was there something in that chapter that you read where you said, oh, this is something that resonates with me?

Ben Reason: Yeah, absolutely. I, so it just, in terms of the chapter we're talking about.

What a strange service design rules.

Provocations rather than rules

Ben Reason: And I just want to say to you, because I've read other things you've written and I like the way you bring a kind of a lightness of touch to the service design world and kind of some fun and playfulness. And so I took it in that spirit.

They don't really feel like rules. They feel like hey, think about this or like little tips or, provocations in a way. So yeah, I think. I'm just thinking what some of the chapters reminded me of work that we've done,

The customer is king but you can choose your king

Ben Reason: the customer is king, but you can choose your king, I think it's a really interesting one.

I've definitely seen occasions where that's happened. I can think of a project where. One of the insights was some of the customers were really, losing the company money. So the outcome was, how do we either get, how do we get rid of these customers? In fact so in a commercial context, I think that's a really It's a really nice provocation.

I guess it also, it then brings up those contexts where, organizations have customers which, they're obliged to serve who might be there really hard to help or very expensive to help. So there's a, there's an interesting comparison with between a kind of commercial context and a public service.

Daniele Catalanotto: And how do you see this difference on, so basically how do you fire a customer? So basically you've been there or fire a bunch of people, where you say, Oh, these are people that have invested in the relationship with the service. But you notice these are not our kings, these are not the people we really want to serve or we are not the best to serve, which is a good realization to make, but then how do you make that happen in a way that feels, saying goodbye to someone in a relationship is always Is it you saying, it's me, not you, but we loved you?

Or is it like, no, seriously, you cost us too much. You took, you take too much of my time, honey. And I have surfing to do. How did you go with that kind of breakup?

Ben Reason: Yeah, I can't take credit for it because we I think we had the insight, but then the commercial director of the client.

The organization implemented the change, but no, they called these customers and said we need to renegotiate terms because, you're using more than you're paying for. So they had the option to pay for what they were doing or to resign the contract. So it was quite an open, upfront discussion that they had.

Daniele Catalanotto: So basically if we bring it back to a very normal life, it's like your mom really is taking too much of our weekends. Yeah. Either we change it and I'm happy to see your mom sometimes, but if we can change it, great. We can stay together, but I'm dating you, not your mom. It's that

Ben Reason: conversation.

Something like that. Yeah. Okay.

Steal from many sources

Ben Reason: To pick up on, on another one of your rules. And to my point about how you approach it. But I like, this steal from many sources. I've been also reading or rereading Service Dominant Logic, which is the other end of the spectrum from your book in terms of kind of very theoretical, quite hard to access and quite hard to apply.

It's one of the touchstone. Books about service orientation or service thinking. And I think they talk about services being combination, service providers are resource combiners, or as I can't remember the exact phrase, there's this sort of technical thing that none of these things are original or they're, everything is putting together other services from multiple places and putting together something that works for that customer.

So you're saying the same thing in a kind of different way here so it stands up in theory, is what I'm saying in a way here, it's a good. Good way to think about service. It's been coming from lots of different sources.

Daniele Catalanotto: This idea that basically saying a service is a bit of a Lego house where there are already parts within a company that exists and building the service is basically saying, okay, this is the door.

This is the window and we're going to try to put them together and it's okay that the door is red and maybe the window is yellow sometimes it's funky and it's okay and sometimes we just have to repaint it and that's it's that's another conversation that then people need to have

Ben Reason: too.

Building services with parts that already exist

Ben Reason: I was talking to my old friend Paul who's working on a sexual health service. In Ghana and he is very happy with himself 'cause he said I, he's managed to create the service which basically runs through WhatsApp. It helps people order test kits for H I V and get them delivered and return the test and get their results and connect to the doctor if they need to.

All through WhatsApp. And he's really happy 'cause he's, he said, I've made this service. Without any software developers, it's all put together things that already exist, like WhatsApp and like a, off the shelf database and an existing courier service in the city to make something new.

Daniele Catalanotto: Which is a very important thing, I think for the generation of service designers coming, this idea that, yeah, it's today is not only a time where, you can prototype easily, but you can also build a service quite easily. with off the shelf parts and make something happen and really see if it's working in a quite easy way compared to maybe a few years ago when everything we just had to, okay, we just had to build the technology, we had to build the interfaces, the things, and now a lot of that already exists, and we can just build on it.

Yeah.

Ben Reason: It's so different. So when we started out, most things you can imagine exist out there, and you might just need to put them together. In a different way,

Daniele Catalanotto: Which is a very good provocation. I know it's a provocation that usually when people come to me and say, ah, we need absolutely a software that does this and this and this and this, the classical answer that I give, which I think many people give today is if you thought of it, there is another nerd somewhere who thought of it.

So let's just. Let's take some time to see if something similar, maybe not exactly what you have in your head, but something similar exists and how we can build up on it, or maybe just or maybe just use that or, just send people to that and problem solved because maybe this is a

Ben Reason: kind of challenges. I think services are challenges. More established ideas about who, what a designer is a kind of author and you're almost saying here that, we're all just compiling stuff, stealing things from different places Maybe not really stealing, but I get the the provocation and, less ego in the mix

Daniele Catalanotto: Yeah, which is quite interesting.

And and this less ego in the mix, I think you,

Rules or provocations

Daniele Catalanotto: you said something that, that, that is very important to me when you said that at the start these rules are, you understand them as more provocation or Tips or ways of starting a conversation today. Maybe some people would call it even prompts, where it's just to start for something.

And then what happens is later. And I think this is a very good reminder in general, this kind of thing is a. They aren't rules, but if we use them like rules, sometimes we get a relationship, which is quite interesting, like as kids, I have a two year old, and when I tell him it's a rule, then he loves to break it.

It's a kind of sometimes I think of it like that, saying, oh, it's a rule that people will. Just say, this is so bullshit because that that, and then you're like, good, now we're getting to think, that's pretty cool. Yeah. It's like what I said to my two year old. Don't pot the pyjama.

It's definitely not the blue one. It's oh, I want the blue one, and then he gets into it and and gets excited about it because there is a thing where he can, express his own identity in a way, in some way, and then also then say, yeah I love the pyjama and I'm going to choose another one in the same time.

And then the conversation goes on. And with these kinds of books, this is, I think, a very good reminder, this, At the end of the day, they are just provocations or ideas from one place, and what's good for you is good for you as long as it gets you thinking. Yeah.

Ben Reason: I, so I'm, but I'm also interested, with the saying that they...

Gonzo Service Design

Ben Reason: In a way you're saying rules, they're there to be broken in a, in that kind of playful way. I don't know if you saw I got to, I was talking to a member of the team a few years ago and she was finding service design. It was a bit like I, I don't know if I'm doing it properly.

I'm new to this. It's a sort of, I did a career change and there are all these people they've been doing for ages. And it felt like she was almost inhibited by there being a kind of a set way of doing it, a proper way of doing service design, which seems a bit sad to me. So I then actually, I wrote a post when I, about Gonzo Service Design, which was, I don't know if you saw it, but it was stealing the idea from From Gonzo Journalism, from the Americans who kicked against traditional journalism in the 60s, Hunter S.

Thompson and people like that. So to just say you can just you don't have to wing it in a way, you don't have to do it painting by numbers kind of service design. So I don't know if Daniele, if you feel that sort of similar, if you have a similar rebellious streak that wants to shake it up

Daniele Catalanotto: a bit.

I think you're preaching to a believer. The one question that I usually like is when people say, what's the process of service design? Like thinking there is one way of doing it. It's a good question, because it's again, it shows something and then usually my answer is to say, Oh, the process is all of these, and answering not by saying, okay, let's be honest there is not just one, there are many, blah, blah, blah.

But just hey, by, by demonstration say, yes, there is a process. There are these 200 and it's but I ask for one. Ah, that one I don't have , but these are the ones that I found, which is quite interesting. Yeah. And how do you react to that? Because I would say today my experience of service design, is.

It's the one where it's like anything, it's, they are always different camps, and I see there is one one tribe, if we can call it like that, there is one tribe, which is very in the need, let's say it in a very positive way, in the need of rules and regulation and standards.

And there is a tribe of people who would be more the Gonzo style saying I can play with rules when rules are needed, but I can also play without rules when it's better to without it. Do you feel also that there is this these different tribes or how is your reading of that?

Ben Reason: Yeah, I wonder if the tribes or, I've definitely come across more of that standards and things. And I, I did say in the article, I think this is great. It does up quality, there are there are some really great resources out there that kind of say, this is how you do it.

And I think that's really vital. I just think, it's like all of these things that gets dangerous If you don't challenge things and you're not agile in a given situation because I you know I think I if you were to go full gonzo all the time that would be Problematic and you'd probably run out of employment.

So yeah, it's I think maybe there aren't, maybe there aren't tribes. I haven't been looking out for them.

Daniele Catalanotto: So basically I will translate that as, it's basically like faith, I come from a religious background okay. Sometimes I have to say, yeah, my wife is a pastor.

My parents were pastors. I've seen the good parts of face and the bad parts and and it's like that. It's like where face is good as long as you remember why you have it.

Ben Reason: You just, I just, I met a friend the other day and he said, I was talking to my church group and we were having a discussion about post church.

And I was like, is that a thing? Like post, post church? What's, it was what you were describing. It's we have a faith, but we're, we have our skepticism.

Daniele Catalanotto: And you can recognize that sometimes your face is blocking what was the mission of having a face, spreading love being well together, and then it's saying, Oh, maybe now it's not helping.

Maybe we have to think, did we really do what we wanted to do?

Ben Reason: Yeah. Have we created the the Roman Catholic Church? Started to run an inquisition across Southern Europe.

Daniele Catalanotto: And and it's a good reminder, I think, sometimes thinking did we go, I think this is very near to thinking about systems, where you are in the system and having the moment where you can take, go out and say, Oh, did we just create something that's now going to fuck us?

Okay, so now we have to change what we've designed because now we see the bad parts of it and it's okay.

Ben Reason: Yeah, I think there's quite a bit of that going on at the moment. There's a sort of reflective moment in the service design world. I joined a group that's kind of Service Design Next, where there's a nice discussion going on.

Yeah, maybe that's a good thing. I think it's happening in design generally, isn't it? There's a sort of challenging some of the assumptions that we grew up with that, design is a good thing because users, without questioning the kind of economic system or the power structures that you're working in.

Daniele Catalanotto: Oh, we realizing that we are part of what fucked the world, okay, but believing that we were believing saving it, which is something, which is a realization that is quite fun sometimes to have.

Think about the death of your service

Ben Reason: Hey, I also wanted to, I I don't know if you make the connection between your not rule about, think about the death of your service.

And and Joe Macleod work around endings and if you're aware of. Yeah. Yeah. Because he came to an event we had once and he gave this whole talk about how terrible we are at facing death in the West, it's most cultures have a positive, a kind of confront death face on, whereas it's quite avoided.

But yeah, so he, he's obviously developed a whole a number of books and a whole practice around just looking at the end of life of products and services. It's very important to think about how things end.

Daniele Catalanotto: And he asked a very good question, which is, what happens if we put the same energy in endings as in starting?

Which is a very smart question. Yeah. I remember

Ben Reason: early, early days for me in service design, having this idea that, you know, if you think about all of the energy that It goes into retail, into marketing and shopping, the whole experience of shopping and how curated that is and how designed that is.

Imagine if the same experience for your unwanted clothing or, the same level of experience for throwing things away or recycling them. It's hard to even imagine what that would be like, but imagine if you had a kind of a whole IKEA sized. It's a destination for the stuff you didn't want and it was like a day out with meatballs would be weird.

Daniele Catalanotto: Yeah, and imagine it's a place where, as IKEA today, where you say, Oh, I don't know what to do with my kids. I'm going to go there because there is a free free childcare moment and it's cool. And we're going to have a good moment at the, and I don't even have to think about lunch. It's imagine this where it's like leftover lunch playing with it's something that So that, it creates very interesting images.

Yeah, the

Ben Reason: novelist Douglas Coupland he imagined this future where landfill sites would become kind of destinations where you could dig through layers of cultural history. You go back and Oh, look, I found this sneaker from the eighties. Do you remember the people would go for a nostalgic day out?

Daniele Catalanotto: I think Joe brings very good questions in that and and he's definitely a guy to know for people who aren't interested in the comics.

Ben Reason: He's the only design stand up comic that I'm aware of. When he talks, he's always... Hilarious.

Daniele Catalanotto: It's a fantastic indeed. Plus one, plus a very lovely mate.

It's a it's one of these people where you have a drink after and you're like, oh. He's he's, it's it's the same person, where sometimes you have people being in front of the stage, they have a front stage and the backstage, and then here is just front stage, it's it's always the same.

Which, which is something which is quite Quite lovely. And I'm interested in the bad stuff, so we're speaking about endings. And I'm going to use that as a transition to the bad stuff.

The bad stuff

Daniele Catalanotto: What's stuff in that chapter where you say, Oh, that stuff is not exactly what I would say. And this is how I will reframe it.

This is what I will add to it to make it smarter.

Do what you don't want to do

Ben Reason: I was going to ask you about this. You have one rule, do what you don't want to do, which and I guess you, you talk about it being in relation to, to keeping yourself healthy, do the things you don't want to do, go to bed on time and eat, and I just, I didn't really see how I have to make a jump to see what that might mean for within a. Kind of design practice in a way it seemed a bit like a kind of, rather brief self help tip, without me being quite able to say how, what do you mean beyond, if I don't like doing workshops, I should try harder,

Daniele Catalanotto: so basically, you're saying, I'll say it like a bar, like a friend in a bar, which is. Hey, super lovely tip, mate. It's great. It's one, you could put it on a TikTok, but how does that help me in my work, in my business? And and that's basically a bit your question and reaction. Did I get that right?

Ben Reason: Yeah. It's a kind of like easy for you to say it might be what your friend in the bar says, it's yeah okay.

Daniele Catalanotto: And so let me ask you what So I will do the, the usual thing that that workshop facilitators do. It's like not answering the question right now, but giving it back to you.

Do you have ideas on how you would put that in place? I have a view obviously, but I'm quite interested. How you would react to such a provocation?

Ben Reason: If I apply it to service designing or service designers, I think Being generalistic. There are certain things that those people with the design training don't feel comfortable doing.

They might be setting some firm commercial rules in place for the work you're doing. And they might be, engaging with some kind of I don't know, this might just be my experience, but, being bold in a conflict of situations or even to my, to the initial story about being a little bit shy about explaining what you do, that's a bit weird to not just boldly go in and say.

Yeah I'm, I am the pioneer of this new design discipline, why do we why do you go to a design conference and see a kind of breakout group for introverts. So there's, I guess there's a certain Natural, there's certain characteristics that fit well into design, but it gives, it means you might have some weak spots or blind spots, maybe not weak spots, but discomfort points.

That would be how I would build on that. I, I find that, there's cliches that you learn more in, in the moments of adversary or discomfort than you do doing what you're happy doing.

Daniele Catalanotto: Yeah. And I think that's definitely one avenue that I think is this personal avenue, where we say in the work.

of a service design practitioner, they are generally different types of people, obviously but there are things that many people don't like, for example, the political side of it, the knowing that it's not gonna happen in the workshop, it's not going to happen on the blueprint, it's not going to happen, the thing of just you Calling a few guys having to stay a bit later to have a beer, to loosen up the relationship.

For introverts like me, this is a thing where I'm always like, I just don't want to do that. But I know that the... It's something that is extremely important. The political side, in a good way, politics is what makes us go forward also and makes us help to take decisions, so we can see it in that positive light, and say, hey this is a part where we have to slowly also get comfortable.

It's it's like brushing our teeth, it's no fun, but once you've done it, And you have this bright smile you're quite happy with it, but it sucks to do it. The only difference is that it's not three minutes, it's three hours and and the taste might be a bit more gin and beer like which maybe is a little bit.

Definitely. I think there, there is one aspect. And then on the business side, there is a lot of. Of ethical questions, that we don't like to ask ourselves, I think which brings us back to the first part of our conversation, when yeah it's just so easier to not think about the end, it's so easier to not think about how's that going to impact other people who we are not thinking about yet and how easier it is just to start, and not say, and Let's take some reflection time to see if really this is something that we should invest in energy on.

Because we don't like to delay, we don't like to wait, we don't like to add complexity to it. And sometimes asking this question of,

do I don't... Is it, do I have a good reason to not want to do it or is it just that it scares me or it's just too uncomfortable? And the question, the answer might be very different from time to time, but it's a good question to ask what is making us uncomfortable?

Should we do the easy thing?

Ben Reason: It's interesting, your two rules, these first two rules you have about, what if it was easy or do what you don't want to do, they contradict each other or they clash in a way.

But on the easy. The easy front. I think there's something deeper in there about, it's actually really hard to make something simple. I don't know if I'm equating easy and simple but on the other hand I've been feeling, and again, blogging about, to challenge the assumption that everything should be easy and smooth and, does that actually work?

Thank you. improve our experience at a more kind of meaningful life level. And I mentioned a story about buying a train ticket in Florence in Italy and the guy behind the counter being almost, couldn't really be bothered to serve me and he could have said incredibly rude, but I enjoyed it because it was You know, a story to tell and, it didn't really matter.

A typical Italian way. Yeah, I got the typical Italian experience. I didn't, it felt authentic rather than, manufactured. So I'm, it's not so much, yeah, I guess it's not like whether it's easier or, yeah, I just wanted to challenge that kind of, I don't know if you've come across this word, seamless and, in the design world all the time.

Daniele Catalanotto: Yeah, the perfect end to end, neutral, happy feeling always, which feels like someone under drugs, it's okay, let's give them a lot of drugs to be always happy. It's gonna be awesome, and then the moment you have kids, it's then, it's probably a realization of...

Oh, if I want to make his life happy, I'm going to make his life as shitty as possible. And it's sadly my job to be sometimes the dick who says, no, and to be that wall of, no, that won't happen. And it's sad because I'm like someone who loves to be into the, let's find a solution, et cetera.

But sometimes, yeah, it's part of the, it's. Realizing that maybe it's better not to make something smooth sometimes. And and with that it shows, as you said, is both can be true, that on one side we can ask the question, what if I, what if it was easy and then ask the other question right after, which is, and what are the difficult parts that we should keep difficult?

Yeah. What are the difficult parts that we should.

Ben Reason: I saw a great example of that, actually, which was not our work. Another team had worked on student loans, so applying for a student loan in, in the UK, and they realized that this was the first time most of the kids had borrowed that, it's a significant amount of money to borrow, and they probably hadn't borrowed money before, and that if they made it too easy and too, they would basically take out a loan without even knowing that they'd taken out a loan or what it meant.

So they, they deliberately put these kind of roadblocks in the process where you had to... You had to prove that you've understood something. I can't remember if they put in a quiz, but you definitely had to think about it. And I then later learned from from Anna in our Rotterdam studio that the kind of the behavioral economics term for that is a rational override.

Yeah. You need people to engage their slow thinking and say, Okay, I'm doing this and that's the right thing to do. And I've considered it properly. So that's a nice she's written a few things about that. It was actually her graduation project to look at how do you design a rational override.

Daniele Catalanotto: Which is an extremely good complement to the idea of nudging, to like having this opposite thing where it's yeah, it uses the aspect of nudging, but in the other way, which is very interesting to say, okay, now we have two elements in our toolbox. And When do I use which? Exactly.

Ben Reason: Because the logic fits into that world of almost like stuff happens without you knowing it. And which is not always a good thing. It can be a dark pattern.

Daniele Catalanotto: And I'm going to use your mention of the Rational Override to transition to the next question.

Resources to go further

Daniele Catalanotto: Is there any resources books blog articles that you would recommend to people when they read a book on service design and you say, hey, this is something that will be very good if you're interested in that topic to go a step further.

Ben Reason: Some things pop to mind, which is not, it's not a direct service design thing.

But in relation to our earlier conversation about it touches on a few things. I'm a big fan of a, of an author called Timothy Morton. And they write about ecology, but in a very... Playful kind of philosophical, so it's quite deep but it's also quite playful, they reference popular culture as much as, Nietzsche or Kant or something.

And there's a book called Being Ecological which has been really useful to, to challenge some of the ideas about what it, what that means, do I, is it just really hard and I have to be, I just have to give stuff up and and they ask the question, what if it was, what if it's really easy to be ecological, but what if it's as easy as loving your dog or your cat or, so I I would recommend everyone read that book.

That would be my gift to the audience.

Closing words

Daniele Catalanotto: Awesome. Thank you so much. And as we're coming to an end, And is there something that you'd like to offer to people watching this where you say, Hey either it's something on LiveWorx side or on your personal side where you say if people want to get in touch, or is there something, a call to action that you have that you can share for,

Ben Reason: As you mentioned, we have spruced up our website recently.

That's I think, tightened up the story in terms of why service design tried to do what we were discussing earlier about being a little bit more bold in terms of what it's yeah, go and have a look at the new website and tell me what you think would be useful.

Daniele Catalanotto: Awesome. So you heard the call to action, go check the website and send some love back to the team who has worked a lot on it.

I think that's especially something that is. It's it's like having a baby, but nobody sees it, like when you have a baby, usually people come to you and say, Oh, he's beautiful. He has such great eyes and his nose is, looks like yours, and it's all compliments that you don't really care about usually, but let's do the same, but with

Ben Reason: good compliments.

That is very empathic of you. So I would specifically give Chelsea in our Rotterdam studio a call out on that because she has been midwifing that baby and she had to. to stay up all night during the labor.

Daniele Catalanotto: So let's do it like that. I will then ask you to have her LinkedIn profile so that we can obviously then send some love or maybe a post where people can just say all the things that they like because I think this is something that hard work has gone into that and it's invisible work as long as people notice it and then it's a moment of celebration that people can share which is Very cool.

And don't forget to say that the website has her eyes. I think

Ben Reason: this is... Oh yeah, it definitely has Chelsea's eyes.

Daniele Catalanotto: Awesome. Hey Ben, thank you so much for this conversation. It was a pleasure to discover you. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you so much. Great.

Dan Levy is a founder lead strategist and workshop facilitator at More Space for Light. This innovation and strategy consultancy has partnered with organizations like Apple. Google or TikTok.

Dan is also a big community lover. That's why with his team, they have created the podcast The Future Of Now that has welcomed more than 30 guests from all around the world in order to share learnings about the innovation world.

With Dan we discuss the chapter: “How to understand better the people you serve?”

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

• How can we adapt to the speed of the organisation and the people we work with?

• How can we learn from the experiences of people using the services of our competitors?

• How the budget conversation can reveal much more when we use frameworks like BANT and SPIN?

Books

• Pricing Creativity

• The Win Without Pitching Manifesto

• Same Side Selling

• The Jobs To Be Done Playbook

Frameworks

• BANT framework

• SPIN framework

• The Four Quadrants of Information

• Jobs To Be Done framework

Communities

• Mural Community

• Miro Community

• Invision’s Design Leadership Forum

• Butter Community

Podcasts and podcast episodes

• 2 Bobs Podcast

• The Future Of Now Podcast

• The design of evil with Christopher Noessel podcast episode

Made with AI
This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Daniele: Hey Dan, such a pleasure to have you here today.

Dan Levy: It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Meet Dan

Daniele: My first question to you is, when you're joining a birthday party, how do you usually present yourself?

Dan Levy: I would say my name's Dan and my spirit animal is a bear and it's way past my bedtime.

Where are the beers? That would generally be the pata. But if you were to ask me in a professional context, and I try never to go there if I'm at a party, say my name's Dan, I'm in the business of innovation, that means I help organizations figure stuff out that they don't know how to ask, and they don't know where to go.

And that involves whether they're trying to figure out what the future of their product, service, company, industry looks like, and I work with them, or my company More Space for Life works with them, to figure that out. to figure out the questions that they're trying to look for to discover new opportunities for growth which result in some form of innovation or a better service or product experience of some kind.

Dan the bear workshop facilitator

Daniele: And so I'm very interested about the bear. Why the bear for the spiritual, a spiritual animal?

Dan Levy: Oh, it's because of my dad. My dad is Harry Bear. He was Harry Bear. And I've always liked the bear. I just like it. It's fierce and it's cuddly.

Daniele: Okay, like the double side of it.

Dan Levy: Double side.

Yes. Like being a dad. You have to be lovable, but you have to be fierce at the same time. You still have to have your dad discipline. And as a workshop facilitator, as well, as somebody that collaborates a lot, you have to be cuddly, you have to listen, you have to be the, that great...

Big presence in the room, but also in the great big invisible presence of safety, let me just emphasize. But sometimes you need to be a bit fierce to keep things moving and to bring everyone back to task.

Daniele: I love this bear analogy because often, when I do workshops, I feel exactly the same emotion, which is sometimes you are the bear in the fact that You're here showing this is structured.

It's going to go well, and it's like reassuring and stuff, like you take your deep professional voice, and sometimes it's like more mama bear, which is like going to take the one who's crying and say, Hey, it's going to be okay and maybe protect the person from the nasty guy who just said a very bad word.

Thank you. Harsh comment and being mama bear, you cuddle and you fight back, and you create, you try to create, to bring back also the family together and say, hey, this wasn't nice, let's talk in another way,

Dan Levy: Yeah. So I take that one step further and I'm going to complete it.

I'd try and be pooh bear, because pooh bear approaches things as a beginner, in the beginner's mindset and simplifies things. Because as We go in and we deal with very, especially from human centered design, very complex problems. And often, that means that we have to negotiate some form of bias, some sort of political agenda, whatever that might be.

And often we might be working with people that aren't familiar with working in this space, which means that they're not going straight to solutions, they're problems, and they have their own language with acronyms and stuff. So as Poober, we have to come in as the innocent and with the beginner's mind.

We have to simplify things and also promote that level of vulnerability in the room to help encourage people to share. And open up. I'd go Pooh Bear, for me anyway, that's

Daniele: the lead. Pooh Bear that's... As, I'm not a native English speaker. For me, it sounds like poo bear. Which means poo like poop or what is this a fake?

We need the Winnie the Poo.

Dan Levy: Winnie the Poo. Okay. Good to know. Winnie the poo. Okay. Okay, so there's the Cartoon guide and Yeah, and there's a great book called The Tale of P. Let's start there with the first book. Recommendations. Perfect. The Tale of Poo. It's one of the most amazing books and one of the first books I ever read that come.

Got me on my headset and an understanding of spirituality.

Daniele: And may I ask you, because from what I've seen and I've read you, you are quite experienced workshop facilitator. Yeah. You little bit, you're quite at a at a high level. And as I'm also dabbling in worship facilitation, I'd like to.

to maybe spend just a little time knowing what's your approach, what's the way you're making it a bit different than others maybe? Because, we all have a bit of a style going on. What's your kind of signature move, your element That, that people say, Oh, this is a workshop made by Dan, it has that flavor.

Dan's workshop signature moves

Dan Levy: All right. I gave one of my signature moves away, one of my special moves away on LinkedIn the other day, which was the Elmo. Elmo is the, I like to. Have a level of familiarity in the room. So I use ELMO enough. Let's move on. It's like a danger word, which kind of takes it to that brink of always going to be a bit saucy here by introducing a safe word or a danger word and then bringing in ELMO and then using it as an acronym.

It just confuses people and also lowers the level of stakes because I find that, again, going back to complex problems, high stakes, they spent money to bring all these people together. How do you lower the stakes and promote that vulnerability? The flavor or the thing that I feel that is a more space for like workshop.

Is that we like to provide a double dip experience when

Daniele: we go back.

How to create psychological safety or create the double dip experience

Daniele: Okay. I want to know more about the double dip. What is a double

Dan Levy: dip experience? Okay. Double dip means that when you're with your family and friends, you feel comfortable enough to take a potato chip or a stick or vegetable or whatever it might be, and dip it in a hum.

Or whatever the dip is, eat it and put it back in and dip again. And everybody in the room's doing that and there's no worries. They don't worry about it like the slobber or whatever else, what they've eaten or anything related to COVID. They love each other and they have that trust. And that's something I try.

And more space. The more space kind of method is to try and make that level ground. And it doesn't matter hierarchy, role, whatever that might be. We want to create a double dip experience. So people feel they come out of a workshop or some sort of program with us and they're energized, not exhausted.

Daniele: Great. And how did you create a double dip moment? Now, is there things that you have changed in your way of doing the workshop or doing the preparation that promotes this, ah, okay, now I'm not in the usual workplace? This is a different moment. How do you create this shift? Because it can be very political work, usually work is quite political, quite structured, and suddenly going from structured, political, alternative to, I can just double dip and it's okay.

It's quite a shift. How do you manage to, to make that

Dan Levy: happen? With any product or experience where you've, where you don't think about behind the backstage and you get bought into that experience based on the simplicity and the effortlessness of, doesn't matter if we need to change tact, whatever, We know that person's got this, that's really the magic, that's where the magic actually happens outside of the workshop or the the construction.

And then when we're in there, it's like jazz. There's a framework, there's a beat, there's a steady beat, but it doesn't matter because we can go off in whatever direction and I can give people that confidence knowing that we have a scope in terms of our discussion. Nothing's going to be lost.

Everything's going to be captured. The way we go about the activities, the narrative of the conversation or whatever it is guided. The flow of energy between people is always managed. But even to extremes, I was in a workshop last week where things got very heated and people kept looking around at me wondering when I'm going to, when I was going to tell it, but I can, I don't know when you're, when you're in that flow and in that mode.

Semaless and improvised workshop experiences

Dan Levy: Like being a parent, you do things that are quite natural, that you don't think about, and after the fact, you're like I didn't really think about that. That's awesome that how that kind of just happened. It's almost like a reflex. So hopefully that gives you a bit of an idea. But really. The construction and the heavy lifting happens outside, just like the iPhone.

It's beautiful on the outside. The experience is seamless, but you know it's had a hell of a lot of work to get to that point where you just press a button or whatever it might be. There's a hell of a lot of work, as like for your videos, for your content that goes into creating something.

Simple.

Daniele: And, it reminds me of of my brother. My brother is a jazz musician, so it's a lot of, improvisation and when we, when I was next to his room, it was a nightmare because then I learned what is. Free Jazz and what is improvisation. It's not improvisation. It's a nightmare of training.

The guy eight hours a day was doing like da. And, and learning specific ways to transition from one place of the piano to the other. And once I was like, but mate, why did you do that? Isn't improvisation, just coming on the spot, listening what the other guy does and doing it.

when I was saying something interesting to me, which was... You can only do that when you have a library. of things you already have tried and know, and that you have, that you are really good at. Because then, the guy just says, does something on the trumpet which is pa pam, and you say, okay, with pa pam, I can do, I have all of these boxes that I can use, and I'm going to use this one.

But basically, this happens at such a speed, that it feels like improvisation. But in fact, it's high. Those is of learning, which then make it possible that people are just like, okay, now I'm just going to throw section B, 44 it's in there and and a good workshop for me feels a lot like that, which is, On the spot, people feel like, oh, this is magic.

The guy improvises it's awesome. And you don't know, first, the years of practice who are behind it. And also the months, weeks, hours of preparation of thinking, okay, the schedule has to be this, the energy level here. We have to make this transition so that it happens. Oh, there is this political person in which we need to take care especially well.

Oh, there is this danger here that I know they told me. There is this word, which is a trigger word in the organization. And I have to learn to use another word to speak about that because when I speak of branches, it makes people think about the merger, which is not the goal today. So we're going to speak about shops and I have to relearn that word, which is quite interesting.

Dan Levy: Yeah, and also whilst that's going on, through that level of mastery, like going back to your brother, he knows that he's got the framework of the construction of the piece that he's playing, just like the framework of the structure of the workshop, allows you that freedom. Because then you're at that next level of mastery where...

You're not necessarily thinking about time or anything like that. You're like how do we get from A to B or how do we get to this specific, hit this beat to get to this part of a conversation or get people focused here? And it's just like little things that you might be a little bit subtler, that you'll do to get that response.

Just like the little things that he'd do. will be subtle, but will have such a neat impact in regards to how people react or have that experience.

About More Space For Light

Daniele: And so what are the experiences that you design with your company? So a workshop is one part of the work you do is, are you mainly focused on workshops?

Are you, do you do basically all of it? Do you go up to implementation? So if you're speaking about innovation where is this kind of your specialization? Where do you start?

Dan Levy: Where do you end? Okay, that's a really good question. We really focus right at the start. Right up until prototype. From a product perspective, right up to prototype.

From an org design perspective, right up until proficiency. We might help, and this is why we focused our efforts now. We're helping organizations basically Build their innovation capabilities. So from a product perspective, we help all the way through to prototypes. That could be like on a project or a program. We're focusing more now on capabilities. How can we help organizations?

Figure out how to mobilize teams and update and create processes. to be able to support new opportunities for innovation within the organization. And that would might end all the way through to training. We might come in as a a team or I'm working at the moment on my own within an organization as an innovation leader.

in a fractional capacity where I'm coming in supplementing a gap and helping the team learn and build their capabilities as well as plugging in their capacity and a capability. gap within their organization. And that's really interesting because two of the things that we really want to be able to two of the things that we really want to be able to help organizations with is a level of accountability.

So that goes beyond the session or a workshop or some form of interaction to ensure that whether that's we're going to make this change to our organization. We're going to, we're going to help our stakeholders, customers, we're going to realize this new opportunity in the market all the way through to actually making it something tangible in the world to sustainability and that's the way we work and the types of Thinking that we are bringing into organizations.

We don't want to be the owners for that. We want to demystify. Just like what you do with all your service design videos, all your content. We want to make it relatable and accessible to everyone. Everyone there's no black magic in what we do. It just means you've just got to think a little bit differently.

And that's tough, but it's, as Jake Nape says, creativity, and that way of thinking is like a muscle. You've just got to keep working on it. And so that's really the space we're in at the moment.

Accountability in consulting

Daniele: I like your notion of accountability, how it adds something. Looking at that space, of consultancies coming to help, often there is this feeling sometimes of.

Oh, we're just a consultant, we come, we bring what we have to bring, not our responsibility anymore, and and I like here how you, at least from my understanding, it's, you're saying, yes, we come in, we try to bring all the capabilities, demystify but also create a sense of responsibility of what's happening, which is, This is not just theater.

We're not just going to throw out ideas on a wall and stick it out, what we decide is what we're going to do. And if we're going to do that, we're going to be serious about it, and this kind of accountability is something which is extremely powerful if you can bring it as an external person.

How, how you can say this... It's something that will be done and it's not just an exercise in in team building where, oh, it's fun and it's exciting.

Dan Levy: As a business owner, somebody that like running more space, somebody or a company that invests. with us to help them. They've made a big decision there, obviously, that they're trying to do something differently.

So for us, from our point of view, we want to make a difference. We want to go in and we want to help them get to a great outcome. I'm not just saying that, like that is what I believe. I'm really, in my pitches, usually I'm like, I just want to do the work because I, it sounds super exciting. It sounds cool.

And this is why More Spaces exists. So I can. Work with cool people and do cool stuff, very simple. And that comes back to our values of helping people and being able to ensure that it isn't just theatre. What is the takeaway? What things can we make change? And there's been occasions, like we're not perfect, there's been occasions where we've gone in and worked with organisations and, it felt like that.

The tiny things that make the biggest impact

Dan Levy: However. Revisiting that organization, maybe six months later or going through the organization and coming back to the team. There'll be like half a dozen or two insights or something that's really stuck and made a change, always. And they're the things you don't even know. It's crazy.

Daniele: Indeed, it's often the things that you don't think at first, which are then often the parts that people just...

remember and have the most impact off and it's quite interesting.

Dan Levy: Yeah, like an outcome of a workshop program or an outcome of an innovation program could present an opportunity. That is enacted on. However, that thinking and the decisions and the knowledge learned and the skills and the capabilities would be applied to an infinite number of different, whether small or big decisions that have made a difference to that organization.

And that's an intangible outcome that's very hard to measure

Daniele: often. That's like the one time I had one of the worst workshops I made, where I was like, Oh, this. Basically, you feel, ah, it went to shit, but I did my best and you think, okay, it's part of the game. You can't be always doing something great and and you're learning, which is good.

And a few months later, one of the participants came to me and said, Oh, you know what? Through the methods that you shared with us, now I was able to better take care of my mental health because now I know how I can show to, how I can put out all what I have in my brain, which is worrying me. I'm starting to classify it and to make order with it.

And she was like, Oh, this was something which was so useful. And you're right. Okay, this was unexpected because the goal of the workshop wasn't that, but as you say, it's like it trickles in other parts. And that's like often the part that is a bit invisible. And when we get this this blessing of seeing, that people reveal to us months later, Oh, this is what, how we use it now.

It's always something which is

Dan Levy: quite powerful. It's amazing. It's amazing. Going back to that Elmo example I mentioned earlier. So I posted that on LinkedIn. Because I just thought it was something that could be helpful and somebody got back in touch and they said they used it. And then they asked me for a little bit more clarification.

And that's awesome! Like, how good is that? I managed to make a difference and help somebody use something that they've never seen before. That's awesome. That's cool. And like you said, even down to the personal stuff, where you don't know, because often... You're focusing on the objective, the flow, all the rest of it, but everyone's carrying their own baggage and their own narrative and whatever happens, they've got something else that is on their mind that is a distraction from that, that they'll take something away.

The good stuff

Daniele: And and I think this is a great transition for us because I'd like to explore this chapter, how to better understand the people you serve and see what are tiny bits that you felt, Oh, this resonated with me, like in the workshop example, where someone says, Oh, this Elmo part, this resonated with me and I'm using it and it and I maybe use it in another place.

Dan Levy: Yeah, absolutely. So there were some great things and there were some things that I thought could be reframed. And I think that comes just from my mindset. But I'm going to directly answer the first thing, the thing that really stuck out to me:

The good stuff: summarizing what people say

Dan Levy: it's principle number 308. Summarize what I said so that I can disagree with it. And often... I've done it already here. People will say things, and usually it's the thought bubbles like right at the front of their mind, right on the tip of their tongue, they'll say it, and if you just note it back, note it down, sorry, and don't give it a playback of some description or something, you will only get face value.

It's almost like when you ask those five why's. To figure out what level of abstraction, what level of altitude you need to go, when you present or so what you're telling me is that, you use, I say, I'm going to just give you a playback and repeat the steps because as you express here, it's great because people get to they get proof that you're actually listening to them, but they also get to hear what they've said, which gives them the opportunity to respond to it, to change it, to deepen certain parts.

And to some degree, I feel like it gives you permission to interrogate it because you get that confirmation from them when they say, yes, that's exactly what I said. And then you can say, could you give me an example, or tell me how you felt when, or want me for a time when, etc. So that's something that really resonated for me.

Daniele: And it's definitely a powerful thing when, I'm working in a country which is multi language, which means that we often work, in three or four languages, three languages at the same time. That's like a usual thing. And in this context, which are culturally very diverse.

Having this thing where you can say, this is how I understood it in my words, is a really good check in just for also the kind of cultural biases and cultural understanding of it. Yes, you got the idea but you missed this important part. And it's ah, okay. So please, can you explain that to me?

Because there is a language thing that I didn't got here. So can you maybe reveal that, and it's. It's it helps just to avoid the mistakes of thinking, oh yeah, just the Winnie the Pooh example, where you said, Winnie Winnie the Pooh bear, for me it was like Pooh bear, I was like, bear?

Why

Dan Levy: is he talking about

Daniele: Pooh? Why is he talking about that? He's ah, Winnie the Pooh, okay, the thing of the kid. Okay, Now I know what you're talking about.

The good stuff: Don't blame people

Dan Levy: I'll tell you something else as well that really resonated with me was principle number 306. Blame the context, not the people. The only thing I ever blame, Daniele, is the boogie. I never blame anything but the boogie. I don't believe in blame. And I try and instill that with the people that work with us and the people we work with.

So that's team members. Getting rid of blame. Blame is, it's like a full stop. It's really hard to move past blame. However, I really like how you framed it around the context, not the people.

Adapting to the speed of organizations

Dan Levy: And what I find and you might find this similar as well as other practitioners. that go into an organization is that when we step into an organization, whether they're giving us something to go away and do, or we're going and integrate within their organization, we have to adapt to their rhythms.

Generally, an organization won't move as fast as us because they have an org structure, they have processes, they have different permissions, they have different people that have to be put in and spoken to, etc. So we're finding this, for example, with the project we're working on at the moment where The speed isn't what we thought and I was having a conversation with somebody on the team that was a little bit concerned that the lack of momentum or the thing, the delays, etc.

have, caused, have been detrimental to the project. However, I reframed that with them and I had a conversation. I'm like actually. This has given us an opportunity to question our approach, to look for those gaps and be more thorough in what we're doing, whether that's in terms of our research, whether that's the people we're speaking to, to gather those insights, whether that's the training, is there an opportunity here where we can bring other people in to train.

I guess where I'm coming from is... Always look at a challenge or an obstacle as an opportunity. What can we, how can we over, how can we use this to our advantage? So I think that was a really good point.

Daniele: My dad is a psychologist and he's got something quite weird about speed, which I think relates quite well to what you're saying, which is that...

We have to adapt to the speed. For example, when he told me this story, which is quite strange. When he gets new patients in he goes and goes to the reception and shows them which is the room where they're going to have the session. And usually what he does is he says to people, Oh, just, go forward, and he's behind them.

And he points them, it's the door just at the end left. And what he uses that moment to is just to synchronize himself with the speed, the way of walking of the person. And so basically he's trying to feel, okay, where's this person at, you

Dan Levy: know, okay. Oh,

Daniele: she's very energetic, okay. I need to go.

Okay. Now I feel a bit more, the body is giving me a bit of the emotion, of where she is, or if it's someone who is very depressed, and who was a bit more okay, this is very difficult, and say, and he's trying to get there to feel that. Because it helps him also to then obviously empathize better with the person because he had a few of the emotions, he felt how it was, and then he can also, you reuse that in the session and speak it up.

It feels that there is something that is tense, even if people don't spoke about it, he can go back to, oh, in the reception area, when, as we were working, I felt there was something stressful, buttery. Can you maybe share a bit about that? And I think there is a, here potential for us to do a bit of the same, as consultants coming in our organizations at first to take the same speed and say, how does that feel for us?

, oh. And then being able to speak about that also is it okay that this, that it is the speed is the problem, is it not a problem? Do we wish we will be faster to, are we, how can we use it as an opportunity?

Dan Levy: Yeah, sometimes that's very hard. But again, that comes down to the mastery, the experience, that takes time.

In a workshop, we'll intentionally put in energizers, not just to set the context of the type of conversation we're going to have, but also to test, like, Where people are at in terms of their mindset. How far will they stretch? Will they take risks? So it's, yeah, it's really, it's these little subtle things.

The bad stuff: Negativity

Dan Levy: I've got a few more notes. Cool. Let's go on then. I'm listening. All now this again comes from the word blame doesn't fit in. I hate that word blame. I never try and use it when I can. I found that some of the framings in some of the principles.

Look at the negative as opposed to focusing on the positive and, for example, principle 307, ask me what I hated about similar experiences. So here, I feel, to me, rather than I've never been one to believe in, oh I've gone all, I've gone all, I've gone all furry. Never been one to believe in focusing on weaknesses.

I, I've been aware of weaknesses, but I always believe you should push to your strengths and look how you can supplement your weaknesses by bringing on other people. Whatever that might be, as well as professional development, but this question in particular asked me what I hated in past similar experiences, especially you used it in the context of a manager, tell me about a manager, something the way that they supervise me, that kind of rubbed me up the wrong way.

The way we reframe this is by asking. How can, how do you work at your best? Give me an example at work at your best. What are the types of things that slow you down, that prevent you from being your best self, from preventing you from effectively communicating? So it's more just, it's getting to the same outcome, but it's just a different way of framing that.

The bad stuff: speak to the customers of the competitors

Dan Levy: So the other one that I was a little bit concerned about was speak to your customers of your competitors. And I don't know about you, but what I always find is getting organizations to speak to their customers is almost like gold standard already.

But getting them to speak to the customers of their competitors is it's just like, how do we do that when we can't even get to our how do we get to our own customers? And we recently worked with an organization on a competitive review and we were trying to be a bit sneaky in that competitive review because we wanted to figure out how does the customer, how does the company service the customers?

What are they saying? Who are the types of customers they're going for? And we did things like contacted support presented issues and things like that. And then looked at what they were doing, their images, their social, those things like that. So I think like when you offer that piece of advice, particularly I agree with the sentiment in terms of learning.

But I believe there are other ways in order to get an idea of what your competitors are doing and the sentiment of their customers. And I feel like it would be helpful for people I don't know if you found using Reddit, you, things like that, to be able to see, like for example, here we went on lots of forums to see what people were saying about competitors.

So there's other ways where you don't have to directly talk to people. You can get how they serve their customers, their customer service, what their FAQs are, who are the people that are represented on there, what are some of the reviews. What are the Reddits, like you can get enough of a picture, not great, but I think that's really, how would you react to that?

Like what you seeing

Daniele: from that? So there, there are two ideas that you're sharing and and I will put one as a bookmark to come back, right? For right after. The first one is this notion of should we frame things positively, negatively? Both, this is the one that I'd like to bookmark to come after.

And then there's this very practical thing on.

How to find out what the customers of your competitors feel?

Daniele: How do I get to speak with users, people who use a service which is in mind, but which is similar to in order to learn? And I think one thing that you mentioned here, which I deeply agree with, is this fact that, people already share a lot. Online.

So it's quite easy these days if you're using X or Twitter or or other platforms, forums, and this kind of stuff, go and watch and search, for very emotional terms. I'm pissed, I hate this, or this was great, best time ever, and looking at these very high emotions either very low or very high and looking at, okay, what's happening?

This is stuff that back in the days when I was designing websites, I always did when I said, okay. We didn't have that much budget for user research, but we knew we could spend two hours searching on internet something, and so when we were working with a museum, I told, I said, okay, let's just go and watch all the reviews about Disneyland and all of this stuff, and what people say.

And we learned very practical stuff, hey, what people hate usually is they go on the website. And they don't know right away if it's open or not. And what they wanted to know is it open now today? It's I'm looking at Disneyland now. It's okay, this changes our way of showing the schedule.

Today is open. Today is closed. It's like this kind of little stuff, or we will be open in three hours. It's like this little information changed it. And. It happened because we were interested in learning the experience of the competitors. And I think there, there is a lot of learning. How you do that, then, obviously, there are maturity levels, sometimes you don't even have time to do proper user research.

And going for something like that is great. Sometimes you have the budget and then obviously you spend it more on the actual users, because you think there is more to, to learn. And sometimes people are like very experimental and say, Hey! We have a bit more budget. We have a bit more time.

Surprise us. And then you can, good, that's maybe a place where we can go to the next level and say, hey, let's let's bring in some users from other services and and see how their experience is, and what, why do they like it so much, and this is stuff that we can learn

Dan Levy: from.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. There's other ways. Like you just mentioned Twitter, you've only got to put, I think product X is the worst ever. And you'll get a thousand people that will just say you're talking rubbish. And then you can build up some sort of rapport and learn and deep dive from there.

But yeah, you have I think going back to the word you said, have to be creative.

Daniele: Indeed. And so that's really the thing is often with these elements, it's most, I would assume your most advice that is given. Mind included, always needs this translation to your specific area, culture, time, budget, constraints, where you say, okay, the idea is not so bad, doesn't apply, but what does it, how does it inspire me to go further?

And I think this is usually the question is, which should be basically the question we always have when we read whatever we read or interact with someone is like, Not so much do I disagree or do I agree with it, but how can I use it to work further in what I'm trying to do, you understand?

Sometimes there isn't.

Dan Levy: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it might even be people that work for the company or whatever that you're talking to that use the competitive product, or they might have family that

Daniele: do it. Yeah, indeed. Because people, are not as how can we say that? They are not married to products like they are married to their wife, which means they had previously other girlfriends, other products, and and we can't speak about that.

It's okay to speak about your exes, and that's one thing we can

Dan Levy: do also. We're living in a new world now, that doesn't count.

Framing questions positively

Dan Levy: You wanted to talk about the product positive framing as well. Yeah,

Daniele: indeed. So your way of seeing it, you're saying. I think that framing it positively brings more more value.

Is that

Dan Levy: correct? Yeah, to me, I feel you learn more about what assists and helps people work to become their best self than the things that they hate. Again, you're getting into that whole blame, that person did this, that person did that, and what you're getting is a subjective response based on their own narrative that they're carrying.

What you want to learn, if you abstract the problem, what you're actually asking you're actually asking, how can I ensure that you can be the best version of yourself? That's what you're asking. And that is the information you'll learn is how you can support them get there, as opposed to, Oh, I won't look over that person.

I won't ask them this. I want to be able to promote the behavior that will be able for them to be able to perform

Daniele: at their best. It's quite interesting because to me, I'm playing devil's advocate because I that sometimes. I see value sometimes being on the very negative side, and then I will do the Swiss guy, which is bringing back the news aspect, but playing the devil's advocate first is for example, one thing that I've learned, which is very powerful and that I've seen is where people working on strategies, for example, and saying, okay, we, we have to do our local strategy and they have to say their position.

We are this or that. Yeah. And one of the best examples I've seen of a positioning was made by a local church, which said something like we are this church for families, blah, blah, blah. And then they had one line, which said, we are not a club, which if churches. is a very interesting positioning because often churches is it's something which is quite closed.

It's oh you come in and you're part of the club, but you have to adapt to, you have to adapt to the club and it takes ages to become part of it. And they're saying quite strongly, instead of saying we are welcome to everyone, which many people say, they're using the negative.

To express, we know we know we have a problem usually, which is this one, and we're trying to fight that problem. Doesn't mean that we're not we're focused only on the negative thing, but they're reinforcing it with the fact that often people react very strongly to the negative, and they use that negative sentence to say, oh, this is important to us by framing it in a negative way, which is, which to me

Dan Levy: feels very interesting.

But that, okay, I'm going to counter and say that's strategy though, isn't it? It's about making choices on what they are and what they aren't. And they've quite obviously included some parts of their strategy in there, but I would have I would argue, going back to the focus on the person in terms of them performing their best work, they would say what their strengths and how they want to work and how they don't.

In that, this is just, in the context of asking somebody the best way that they work, I wouldn't focus on that. But in the context of presenting in terms of we do it on our page, we are not agile coaches. Yeah, indeed. We are not going to come in and be like, why aren't ants for your organization?

This is what we do. So I don't know if they, I don't know I'm sure people will give their opinion whether what we're talking about is a little bit different or, yeah, I'm not too sure. I'm not too sure. But I always try and frame. For positive, once I have an understanding and for positive, I can build a narrative around that in regards to what, why, where are the gaps, or what, why have you made that decision?

What does that mean?

Daniele: So from what I'm understanding is... You're making a difference, which I find quite interesting, which is saying when we're speaking about individuals, framing first the positive will lead to better results, like asking about what are the strengths, what are what's your best work, like when we're in in, in the personal, that's.

So this is what's going to be a very good shift and you're saying it's not like this how you say that flower power thing where we say, Oh, we never speak about the negative, but instead it's a interpersonal, indirect relationship that often leads to better results and sometimes when it makes sense, for example, when we're speaking about, Hey, our company does this just to be clear, this means that we don't do that.

Then. It's quite powerful as a translation to make sure that people understand where the positive is

Dan Levy: going. Yeah, and also it's trying to move away from the subjective and be objective in regards to, my manager was nitpicky. I'm just sticking to that. My manager was this, blah, blah, blah. It's, you're saying, this is how I do my best work.

These are conditions that help me. And these are some of the things that don't. So I'm taking it away from my manager. I'm just depersonalizing it. And and for me that's the from a strategic point of view, I always go back to Roger Martins. Strategy Cascade, what's your winning aspiration, and it's not what isn't your winning aspiration, it's what is your it's just that one thing, because you could be, because you've got to get rid of all the noise to get to that one thing.

The noise informs. What you're, what you are and what you're not, to me anyway.

Daniele: It's a it's this kind of thing. I think to me, what I like really much about these questions is the very emotional part, the part about strong emotions often, are totally biased, but the, but we work with biases, and revealing the strong emotions often then has, creates an interesting conversation.

What was the best day you had at work? It's okay, this isn't, this was the best day. What was the worst day you had at work? This was the day. It was the worst. And playing with these high emotion often reveals that you can then play with the, both with the positives, meaning like if someone gives you, I think this is something that you do quite well, which is if someone gives you the negative, oh, my worst day was when this and this happened.

Oh, does that mean that What you need to have a great day is this. Yeah, absolutely. Ah, okay. I understood you right. Or if someone says, Oh, the best day I had at work when I had only focused work, and I could just spend four hours working very strongly. And you can say, Oh, okay. So does it mean that small interruptions, having Slack messages and stuff, that's the kind of workplace that makes it hard for you to do your work, your best work?

Absolutely. Ah, okay. Now so I think it's quite interesting, to counterbalance it with with this opposite emotion to double check if it's if there is a right understanding.

The bad stuff: Give a number to create a reaction

Dan Levy: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I also have I've, I feel this one's really important. And it was to do with Principle number 310.

Give a number to get reaction. And you talk about your struggles in regards to figuring out if they've got a budget. What I've found is that... We can, the first thing you need to do before you even talk about money or anything like that is make sure they're the right person to have that conversation with before anything.

And something that I've learned over time, because like the money conversation from a creative is really hard because we're constantly questioning what's our worth, where are we see it, all the rest of it, are we providing value?

Resources for better pitching

Dan Levy: There's a great resource Blair Enns. He has a podcast called Two Bobs.

He has Win Without Pitching, a book, and Pricing Creativity, two books. Absolutely amazing. And David C. Baker as well, his co host, really good. And something that I've learned is a framework called BANT. B A N T. BANT looks at Budget, Authority, Need, and Timing. And you can put them in any order you BANT,

You're really working out how big the need is for the organization and then, before you get into the budget conversation, is really, do they have the authority? The timing as well with need, timing and need really gives the forcing function. But before you get into the whole money conversation, check you're talking to the right person.

And if you're not... Bring in that person, because otherwise, it's a waste of time. Honestly, because nine times out of ten, they might be the person that's talking to a few different companies, or they they're just getting information. You really, when you're ready to have that, Budget, like when you're ready to talk about putting a proposal in, because proposals aren't cheap.

If you think about the time, the effort, and that's emotional as well, you put in to present to organisations. Especially when you're competing against other people, it's a pain. We've made it a policy, we don't compete unless it's a special circumstance. I hate proposals. I'm quite happy you're going on record to say that.

There you are. Horrible proposals. But if you can talk to the right person, it also means you can build that relationship, and you can start figuring out whether that is the problem that we're solving or not, and you can start a process of running some form of informal dialogue. Look at the BANT framework.

So that's Budget, Authority, Need and Timing.

Daniele: Awesome. I think it's a very good resources for people interested in the conversation about money, which is definitely not an easy one. And that gives like a very good structure to think about it.

Dan Levy: I was just going to say there's also spin as well, so spin and band, they go together.

There's also a book called Same Side Selling and they have a really good framework that you can use for quadrants. Yeah, so there's really good tools

Daniele: there.

Thanks so much for these elements. And I think that are really helpful to, to realize that it's not just about the money. It's also before being able to ask these questions.

Sometimes need to be able to reveal other elements. Is this the right person? Is it do they have a need? Do they don't have a need? Where are they in in their journey?

Asking about numbers outside of budget conversations

Daniele: And, the, this question of the number is something that personally I found interesting outside of only just budgets. For example, when someone asks you, oh, can be very work related thing, but also a personal thing where it's oh, could you help me just a little bit on that?

It's okay, sure I have 30 minutes, like playing with the number and then saying, Oh no, I meant two hours. Ah, okay. So now we are, now we're talking, because often people have a bit of a hard time, translating what they mean and how big it should be, and it's quite interesting to me to see that when you give a number back, and the estimation can be totally wrong, it's if it says that, tell me, Oh, Daniele, I'd like to interview you. Oh, great. How long do you think it's going to take? And say, ah, I

Dan Levy: don't know. It's

Daniele: okay, maybe just 30 minutes. Oh no. It's going to be, it's going to be much longer. Two hours. Ah, okay. Now we're talking. Now we know what's the emotion or, what's the feeling.

And I think sometimes people need that. And it goes beyond numbers. This is something that I've learned a lot. Numbers serve as a prototype, and they can serve as putting something where people can have a reaction. And sometimes when people are very blurry about this kind of stuff, Having a number is a good prototype, but also just saying, oh, maybe we do it like that.

Would that be great? And then people can say no, that's shit, because this. Good, now we're working and building on something and we can. Yeah, exactly. We can do something.

Dan Levy: Yeah, exactly. And that comes back to the conversation we were having before in regards to the kind of the framing of the question and trying to gather that information, you're not really trying to work out what's wrong, you're trying to build the scope, the constraints.

Resources to go further

Daniele: I know you're a very curious man, so I'm quite interested. Are there resources that you think would be very interesting in addition to the book where you think, oh, these will be good pairings? I often say it like that, it's like a book.

It's is it like a wine? You don't take it alone. You take it with something else. Is there something else that you'd recommend? A book, a template, an author an expert or anything

Dan Levy: else? Okay I've given some references already, so that's like Blair Ends, ian Altman wrote Same Side Selling, so that's very much from a sales perspective. In terms of the service design. I'm not pandering to you, but you've got so many resources out there. This is the third book that you've written now. The Service Design Principle. What's it number four or three?

Daniele: This is number

Dan Levy: four of the series. This is number four. I've read the, I've read two of them then.

I've been following you for, God, before COVID. No, COVID yeah. And I can see you're consistent, you've got programs, things like that.

Communities to follow

Dan Levy: I feel that you, there's plenty of communities out there as well that you can join. There's the Mural community Miro have a community as well as Invision.

We're part of their design league community, so I'm learning about what's happening over there and on their Slack channels.

There's also Butter. Butter I feel remiss if I didn't mention Butter. They've got a great forum and places that you can seek out this information.

Tool: Sessionlab

Dan Levy: We use Session Lab in terms of workshops and planning our workshops.

Yeah, they're brilliant. They've been there for... for a while. And but yeah, that would be where I'd be going.

Job to be Done Framework

Dan Levy: If I was looking in terms of understanding people, Jobs to be Done Framework with Jim Kalbach, who's also a great jazz player as well. And back to our, Jim is the most generous, beautiful human being I know.

Future of Now Podcast

Dan Levy: On our page, we've got A list of references on there from when we were doing the Future of Now. If you go in the footer, it's got a Future of Now link. And there is a guy called Christopher Noessel on there who works at IBM. He is one of the cleverest and smartest design practitioners that I know of. So creative and also one of the most amazing dads I've ever spoken to as well.

This man transformed his house for Halloween into Diagon Alley. So the kids went round the house. But he's just, he does a lot of future installs, massive geek into all his sci fi. There's also I could keep going and I'll get, and yeah yeah. I'm going to stop there because I could just go. Look at the guests there and there's some great resources and books that you can jump off of

Daniele: as well.

Indeed, for the curious ones, I think a lot of your episodes of the podcast, had really great guests in there, and I think people just looking at the names, just even if you just do that and Google the people, you will find that already a lot of resources, and obviously if you want to go further, just watch the episodes, and then you have the full view on it.

Dan Levy: We paused it last year, and we're actually redesigning something else which I'm not allowed to talk about. So we're coming back, we're coming back, and I'm really excited.

Daniele: Thank you so much for all these resources. I think people will have enough in their reading lists and and then their bookmarks for the next year, which is a very good thing.

Get in touch with Dan

Daniele: If people want to get in touch with you what would you recommend to

Dan Levy: people? Go on to LinkedIn. I look very different. I've got slick back hair, back then. It was a pre COVID picture. But yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn, Dan Levy come on our website, morespaceforlight, come and say g'day.

But apart from that, yeah, LinkedIn's the main place. That's where I do most of my damage. I'm always hiding in plain sight.

Daniele: Thanks so much for spending the time today with me for the conversation where for me, again, it was such a conversation, Like when you speak with a friend in a bar about a book, it's at the end, you learn much more than the book taught you, because it's the conversation that reveals stuff, and the whole conversation about the positive, the negative, how you play with these emotions, was something which I found especially interesting, how we can also use the counter emotions to reveal if we understood well.

I think this was really really deep and interesting. And also learning from your workshop skills at the beginning was also something that was deeply interesting,

Dan Levy: thank you for having me. It's been a delight to share. And if you disagree or want to add to anything, please get in touch.

Daniele: Thanks so much. And have a lovely rest of the day. Take care.

Megs is a Service Design practitioner and Customer Strategy and Service Design Director at EY Canada.

With Megs, we discuss the chapter "How To Make Information Less Overwhelming?"
This conversation led us to explore topics like: 

• The different maturity levels of Service Design around the world.

• Rules of thumb to test out your services like the "Barbecue Test" and the "Real Life Disruption Test".

• How to choose specific channels for specific emotions.

• Book: The Service Organization

• Publication: The Pudding

• Website: Information is Beautiful

• Video: Speaking CEO: Business Fluency For Designers

Made with AI
This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

Daniele Catalanotto: Megs, I'm super excited to have you here today to have a little conversation about the book Service Design Principles 301 to 400.

Megs Armour: Awesome. Thanks for having me, Daniel. I'm very excited to be here. I'm very thrilled you asked me. I look forward to sharing some

Daniele Catalanotto: thoughts on it. Thank you.

About Megs

Daniele Catalanotto: My first question to you: How do you present yourself in a birthday

Megs Armour: party? That's a very good question. In my personal life, because I've moved countries seven times, I tend to introduce myself as a bit of a world traveler who maybe has Grasses Greener Syndrome. And I like to always find a mutual friend with someone in a random country.

And in my professional life, it's very hard to explain to people what a director of customer strategy and service design actually means. And even within my own company, it's very confusing to explain what that means to other consultants at EY. So I tend to say I help clients actually understand what services they put out into the world and actually help them see what they're delivering from their end customer's point of view.

Because more often than not, people don't actually know what they're putting out into the world in terms of end to end services. It's my job to go in and help them make a clear strategy. What are you trying to do? Who are you trying to attract? What is the experience you're trying to deliver? And set up the right internal conditions for them to do that and understand what it means for their customers.

So if, and if people are still listening at that point, I'll probably reel off some more stuff. But that's probably the point they need a beer.

Daniele Catalanotto: Thanks so much. And may I ask, so for what type of services are you doing that work or for what type of companies? What part of the ecosystem are you working

Megs Armour: on most? Yeah. So Since being in Canada, actually, I predominantly work in the public sector and the gaming sector. So those are my two sort of focus areas. And I'm typically working with like head of digital, head of customer experience and helping them basically drive shared outcomes across all their other functions in terms of, hey guys, let's actually work together and create an amazing customer experience that we're all delivering.

In silos, and there'd be so much power if we all worked together and had the same methods and mindsets. So that's where I play here. But I've, so I've been doing strategic design consulting for a decade. And in that time in, in London and Australia, I've really worked across like most sectors, financial services and telcos and mining and whatnot.

I wouldn't say I'm pigeonholed in one place.

Varying maturity levels of Service Design

Daniele Catalanotto: And as a word traveler, you might have a. perspective on the maturity of service design and I'm quite interested in that because you've been in many places, you've seen a lot of things, how do you see the world's maturity of service design in different countries?

Is it, do you see it like as a common thing, it's an average, every place is the same or do you see... Different countries have a bit of a different feel.

Megs Armour: Yeah, I'm going to sound biased because I'm Scottish. Okay, but I do think the UK has a very mature service design market or even just like design community.

And in the time I spent there, I felt like even the organizations I worked in, they just had more mature internal conditions and leaders and mindsets and they value design a lot more and design had maybe a bit more of a seat at the table when making investment decisions and I think the UK design community on the whole is very tight knit, is very vocal Maybe that's just because we're British and we like to chat, but I think that from my experiences, I do think that the UK service design community is mature.

Canada and Australia, so I spent four years living in Sydney, and now I've almost spent two years living in Canada. Honestly, maybe it's just the size of the country and everyone is just so bloody spread out that there are brilliant practitioners that are just working hours and hours away from each other that don't have that same sense of community and progression and I think a lot of the designers I've worked with in Australia and Canada, they're a bit of a jack of all trades and they've maybe tried to UX and moved into product and moved into service design a slightly more generalist than some of the brilliant deep specialist service design SMEs I was working with in the UK.

So sorry, totally biased, but that's my two cents.

Daniele Catalanotto: I love it. I love your hypothesis on the size of the country, how it. It changes also the relation to the community, right? I think it's an interesting insight because definitely when I was

Megs Armour: like...

I was going to say, I think because in Canada, I crave a sense of community beyond work, beyond the four walls of EY more. And so I seek it in different international places online. I do a lot of trying to build an online community. That would be amazing to have in Canada, but I do think, yeah, it's just it's so big, it's so vast and diverse that it's you're never going to meet people.

I think when I moved here, I actually thought I'd go to Toronto all the time in my silly... Minds, that would be like something I do from Vancouver. I don't, I've never been. It's a six hour flight. I've never been, so distance has something to do with it for

Daniele Catalanotto: sure.

Online communities for service designers

Daniele Catalanotto: And so you've been exploring online communities.

So do you have maybe a suggestion for someone who says? I feel a bit alone in my service design practice in my country, in my region online might be an opportunity. Do you have a few names of communities that you say, hey, these are really cool communities, they can be interesting, that I feel I felt supported there?

Megs Armour: Totally. Yeah one that I'm exploring at the moment, which I would highly recommend is called Delta CX. And it's done, run by an amazing woman called Debbie Levitt, who's a bit of a... Just like design guru, I'd say. And I'd heard about it via podcasts and different things online. And she's got a broader CX community and UX community, and then a level based one as well.

And it's fantastic. I joined a call at 6am the other day with some lovely folks from Croatia and Italy. And we had a great chat about metrics. So yeah, that's one off the top of my head. I would recommend that you check out. And she has a phenomenal, youTube set up of 800 hours of CX, UX, service design videos, which you should check

Daniele Catalanotto: out too.

Lovely. Indeed. I think Debbie is a great name to know, especially as she is not only focused on, like service design, but more like this, the broader CX topic which is definitely also interesting. Maybe one to mention that just came up while you were talking was.

Marc Fonteijn's Circle. I think that's if you want to be more specific about pure service design and you're working in a big organization, then I think that community can definitely also be quite interesting.

Megs Armour: 100%. I've never been in house, so I sadly have never been able to partake in Marc's Circle, but yeah, his his podcast as well, I would highly recommend.

It's a fantastic resource for all service designers looking to learn.

The good stuff

Daniele Catalanotto: I would suggest we jump now right into the book stuff. So let me ask, is there something in that chapter that you had, which is how to make information less overwhelming? Was there something that resonated with you where you said, Oh that's pretty

Megs Armour: interesting.

The good stuff: information overload

Megs Armour: Yeah. Lots resonated with me. I think, so this is a really important chapter. By the way, and I'll tell you why it's a really important chapter before I, the lots resonated with me, but when you asked me to read it, the entire time I was thinking like, wow, in the modern world, we are just so bombarded with information.

We're actually like catapulted with information. On a daily, hourly basis. Sometimes I feel like my brain is this never ending inbox of like messages from WhatsApp and email and Teams and Instagram, Discord, Slack. It's like this big stream. And as humans, we're we're just experiencing so much competing information all the time on different channels and interfaces and devices.

It's really easy to miss things. It's like very important things in a service. And like how many times have you been. On a work call, whilst writing an email, whilst flicking through an app on your phone to try and get like car insurance or find an Airbnb or something, like our phones and our tablets and our computers.

The way it's helping us see and consume and use more digital services simultaneously each year. So that I think our digital consumption speed is getting faster and faster. And I was reading that scientists have actually measured that our human brain each day absorbs 74 gigabytes, which is the same as watching 16 movies.

So each day your brain is absorbing 16 movies, 500 years ago. Sixteen movies, that's what you'd absorb in a lifetime. And now we're doing it each day, we're consuming that in a day that's crazy. And in the context of your chapter what does that mean? If a service is confusing and overwhelming, and we're getting frustrated...

We're going to drop it. We have selective attention, like digital services mean that you can start them and stop them when you want. And you can just focus on the information you want to, that helps you achieve your goal or your job. So I was thinking about this selective processing information and.

And you got on one hand, you're being thrown the 16 movies in the day. But then on the other hand, Miller's Law of Psychology states that you can actually only retain seven pieces of information in your short term brain. So you've got this long term daily 16 movies, and then in the moment, you only really remember seven things.

So I think when people are designing marketing materials or interfaces, manuals, processes, services, whatever, it's, you've really got to think about this concept of competing information. Your customer is being bombarded. They're doing your service whilst they're doing something else.

They're only remembering seven things, okay? How can we make information less overwhelming so that it is digested and it is retained? And so that was like, this is my burning platform. So that's why I was thinking as I was reading it, like this is important stuff. Given, this is how we live today as humans.

I see you're nodding, like I'm sure you agree. This is, you are being shocked with information every hour of the day in our lives.

Daniele Catalanotto: And it's, I love this. This mention that you have, this, we have changed over a few lifetimes, the amount of information has totally changed and it's completely new.

And and this question of competitive attention is it's one that I, back in the days when I designed websites, I was always saying, Why the fuck should I go on your website and not on YouTube or looking funny GIFs, which is a very good question, just to scrap a lot of information and content where you're competing with a TED talk right now.

Is this worth it? Is this really what you want people to see about your company or can we go to the interesting stuff right away?

Megs Armour: Yeah, it's so interesting. I think people in businesses I always work with, they think of their competitors as their immediate competitors. They're like, oh yeah, this information.

We'll just compare it to our immediate market competitor. And I'm like, guys, no, compare it to every single app on this phone. That's who you're actually competing against. That's, expectations have changed. The bar has changed. You need to broaden your horizons when thinking about.

Yeah, you can pay yourselves too. Anyway, so reading your chapter, I'm thinking about all this stuff. Immediately, your 11 principles really reminded me of my experience of moving to Canada and just to like share quickly on that story, anyone who has immigrated to Canada will appreciate that the IRCC website.

Which stands for Immigration, Refugees, and Canadian Citizenship, I think. It's the most frustrating, complex, overwhelming service on the entire planet. And the Canadian government, they set very high immigration standards every year. Like, when I applied, I think it was 500, 000 people they needed to enter the country.

That is a big public goal. People like me enable that goal. So you'd think with such a public push to attract and retain international workforce, they'd design a great service that wasn't confusing, frustrating, and overwhelming. But as I read these 11 principles, I was like, wow, the people at IRCC really need to read this book.

And reflecting on certain ones, it just really brought it to life. I could never find my answers in. In the FAQs, there were simple questions. I never knew where I was in the process. I could never log in and return to my application. They sent me huge emails every week in French, like French, not even English.

And as I shared more information about myself. It was like I was unlocking these new levels of shitness. It was like surprise admin around the corner. Guess what? 85 more forms. I printed over a hundred documents. My local print shop knew me by my first name. They were invested in my application. It took six months to complete and my partner got his months later, even though we applied together.

So like I'm reading the principles. Thinking about this experience and how they should really read the book. And my big takeaway was this kind of like meta theme of people really need to consider the right information to the right person at the right time. This is my biggest thing I'm thinking about in all of these principles, right information, right person, right time.

That's at the heart of great service design and reading. It made me think like the value. Of information. It depends on its relevance and its usefulness to the person who's reading it. So you're, your principles that are like, give me information about problems I can solve in this moment, share a video of what I need to do next.

Tell me what boring admin I have coming up. These are all things that they're about this meta theme of just give me the right person, the right information at the right time. So I can do, yeah, I can complete the task and I can be happy and it's a good experience. I think as service designers, you've got to recognize that the right information, it could be raw data, it could be a step, it could be a life cycle, it could be an FAQ, and the right person, it could be a parent, or like a bank account holder, or a C suite, a customer, the right time might be at the point of payment, 24 hours after, when a contract starts or ends and I think these principles will help service designers.

Ensure they deliver the right information at the right time to the right person. I'll pause there. I see you nodding.

Daniele Catalanotto: And I think that the opposite question is also extremely relevant. What's not the right information? What's the wrong information? What's the wrong people? What's the wrong moment to share that? Because often, we're like, oh yeah, here we could share this. And is it really the best moment to share that?

Megs Armour: Right. 100%. And I think that people need to think about the ROI. Of the right information, right person, right time, I think clear and relevant and personalized signposts, they empower a customer, they safeguard operational staff, they lower costs. People like me are calling the call center every day saying, hello, I need my application approved, I've already booked my flight, where is it?

And it's because information is overwhelming, you're going to take a break. You're going to say, Oh, I can't. I can't do this. I need a break. It's too hard. I'm going to go back to work and going back to being on my phone. And that's going to add on more time. That's going to make it less profitable or viable for the operators.

So I think like a lot of this chapter, if it was applied correctly, it'd be interesting to look at the ROI. It'd be huge.

The business cost of information overload

Daniele Catalanotto: And also on, on the quality of the interaction, I think it's, this mention of. If we receive too much information, we might go in procrastination mode as customers or citizens.

And what happens then is usually that the quality of what I have to do will be much lower, which will mean... That's then the organization has to either check in or you missed the deadline. Sure, I missed the deadline. It was an 80 pages document and the deadline was buried in one little text.

Obviously, I forgot about it, and it creates this layer of then you didn't do your work, so now we have to do more work because you didn't do what we expected from you because there was too much information. I think this is also a very interesting point. It's not only about The information overload, like being nice with people because obviously we want to be nice with people, but also for the cost of for the organization of having them very stupid work coming back because you just have to check in that people really are doing what they should do, but that they don't know because it was buried in a 80 pages document.

Megs Armour: Totally. And this is, so if the service This is like a national public service and you have no other option, like getting a passport. You have no other option. You have to do it. Then in these services, they should be analyzing what is the impact commercially of someone saying this is too much. I need to take a break.

I'm going to stop this for a month. I'm going to put it to the back of my list. What does that mean in terms of them following up and chasing them and saying Hey, you've missed this deadline. We need to start all over again. Let me hand you back to the first function and just make this really messy.

I think that's interesting. But then, in the situation where you're working with a private organization that has direct competitors. If it's too much, they're just gone. So we don't even need to look at the cost of the negative journey. So yeah, I thought a lot about that and I was digging around has anyone done any research on the ROI of my information right time?

That doesn't exist yet.

Daniele Catalanotto: So we have to do that research. I

Megs Armour: think we have to do it. Yeah.

Information overload internally

Megs Armour: I think that's next. One, one last thing I think that your principles also really brought to mind is. Giving the context, like I'm a consultant who goes into businesses, who's often tasked with the process of, Hey, can you tell me exactly what my service is?

I don't actually know what it is. I've got a brief idea by our operating model and some products we have, but I have no idea what the service is. I don't know who the customers are. I don't know their end to end journey, pain points, interactions. Don't know any of that. It's hilarious how often that happens.

And I go in like mission with the team and I will say I feel like I'm like a roadmap hunter, like going in, I'm like foraging for information, share your process maps with me, give me that plan, operational data, fantastic, all right, customers, let's see what they're actually doing, not what you think they're doing, and at the end we come out and I'm like, Oh my God, this is so much information.

I'm overwhelmed with how much information, let alone the client who hasn't even seen it. And so it's my job, and it's any service designer who's a service design consultant's job, to take all this information and to make it less overwhelming for clients so that they can make decisions. So I think about, yeah, how can we take what we learned internally and externally and make it meaningful and actionable and digestible.

So I can give it to the head of product or a C suite or someone at the board and be like, Hi, we learned this and this is how you can make a decision going forward. Here's a thousand decisions in a lovely artifact. That has eliminated 20, 000 bits of paper. Let me help you now make a decision of how we can improve things.

So it's again it's who's the right person in the business that needs this information? What's the right time for them to digest it? What is the information they need to see? And I think these principles, you can take them when you're designing services internally in an organization too, which I like.

Daniele Catalanotto: It's, it's the front can find. That you think, oh, this we could apply to make the life of customers easier. You can then just basically apply it and say, hey, now let's make our lives internally easier. And yes, obviously we can reduce the amount of information because... Businesses. It's incredible the amount of information we share, and having this, there are these simple rules, like there, there was one one person who came up with a four sentence email, who said it should never be more than four sentences in a business email, which is interesting kind of rules of thumb also to bring this information of, hey, You have to invest a bit of time now, so that all the four people that are in CC, lose less time.

And sure, you invest one minute more, and again, in the end, the others will get it. There is this sentence, I think it was a famous writer who said who sent a very long letter to a friend and he starts with, sorry, I had no time, therefore, this is a very long letter. Which is very interesting to me, it's I had no time, therefore, it's too

Megs Armour: long.

So I haven't thought about how to synthesize it correctly. Interesting. Yeah. It's the time you spend upfront In designing information correctly that has that, your long term ROI. I always say, and I think transformation programs are a really good example of what we're talking about here and spending the time to design the right information to help people who are doing like a big public five year digital transformation program where they have millions of robots.

Millions of decks, like all of this information, like all over the shop and you come to the big like planning meeting and everyone's okay, let's start our two hour meeting by going through our 300 page deck. And this is where Service Design comes in and say, Hey guys, don't worry. I already spent some time mapping out.

What the end user experience will be in two years time, as well as all of the different technology and process and operational considerations that lie underneath that. So guess what? We don't need to have the 300 page deck and all the roadmaps. That's cool. But they can fit into this contextual journey.

That's going to anchor all of those decisions going forward. And if we need them, we can dive into them. And I spent that time doing that so that we don't have to do all this other stuff. So yeah, building on what you said, it's invaluable in the long run.

Good example of information load

Daniele Catalanotto: Do you have an example of. of the opposite of the immigration service, something where you say, this is a perfect example of a good service that gives just the right amount of information, just at the right time and exactly what I need.

Is there something in your personal life or business life where you say, this is something that we should All analyzed because they do it so well.

Megs Armour: Yeah, that's it. Okay, so this is just top of mind because I just came back from my surprise holiday, from my surprise engagement, but... Progress again. Thanks.

When I got to the hotel... Okay, so hotels, they typically, they're sending you emails. In the run up to getting to a hotel and you're getting emails about important things like payments and logistics and whatnot. But, when you get to the hotel, they say, Megan, I'm gonna, I'm gonna now communicate with you over WhatsApp because everything that happens here is gonna be fun.

And if something... If something like serious happens, like your account, your card got stolen and someone spent all your money, then we will, we'll call you, we'll do an email, but for all the fun stuff, we're going to do it over WhatsApp. So that's going to feel easy because that's contextually the right channel for the mode that you're in on holiday.

And I was beaming. I was like, yes, I don't want to look at my emails because I'm on holiday. Emails are from Monday to Friday. That's not where I am right now. And throughout the day they would WhatsApp me and I'd WhatsApp them. And it was beautiful. Just little tiny updates, lovely things that I was going to be doing or wanted to do or things that I had.

And I really thought about it and like they have. They've considered the right challenge, the right channel for this moment in time and sharing the right information. They're not sharing information about the payment, they're not sharing information about my flight, they're sharing information about drinks I'm going to be having.

And I love that and I'm just like, why aren't more fun hotel services? Maybe not the best example, just really top of mind. Like I thought about it for ages on the plane, I'm like, fun services where you've done all the admin, it should be on WhatsApp because that's the channel I'm in, in that moment.

Daniele Catalanotto: And it's so smart because it's saying, now you're in holiday mode. So we don't want you to go in your emails to be sure that you've missed, you're missing something about the holiday. Because, we open your emails, you will see the bill from your electricity provider and you say, Fuck, I have to pay the bill.

Or you will see that there is a work thing coming up and that's not good. But instead, WhatsApp, the worst thing you can see is a photo of your family member saying, I'm skiing. And it's okay, that's

Megs Armour: holidays. Exactly. The right channels is, and thinking it goes beyond this, like right information, right person, right time.

What's the right channel. And something I was going to, I was going to bring up actually, I was thinking about other things I would probably want to add it and going like beyond your 11 fantastic principles. I think as we had discussed in the beginning, like in this modern world, Services are constantly competing for our attention and our concentration and you're most likely doing a service whilst you're doing something else.

Like you're most likely accessing a service whilst you're walking, whilst you're on the bus, whilst you're working, watching TV on your phone, like cooking, watching kids, whatever. And so I think with this in mind, can like spending a lot more time digesting where users are consuming information and testing it, can it be done in a distracting environment?

So is it easy enough to digest this information whilst the TV is playing really loud? Is it easy enough to digest the information whilst you're on the bus and someone's chatting in your ear whilst music is playing? And I think building on the point we were just saying about thinking What is the right channel for that person?

Are they doing something else in that moment? I think it's fine if your service is really complicated like trying to get a visa to Canada. Fine, fair enough. That's complicated, but tell me Megs This is going to take you an hour of full concentration time, maybe three. And that's okay, but don't do anything else.

Don't distract yourself on your phone. Don't try and do this multitasking. And it's, recently our team was actually, we were helping a government body design a healthcare service. And we learned pretty quickly that most people would actually access this service.

And what's interesting And suddenly we just thought, I don't know if it's simple enough to use on a trade I don't even know if we've designed it thinking it would be mobile first. And it was so interesting. Suddenly we were like, Oh, if we actually want adoption, we really need to consider it. What is the right, yeah, how can we design it so that it fits the environment people are going to use it in?

So I think, yeah, understanding the environment to pick the channel and telling people if you need to focus or not is also very key for getting information right and ensuring people digest it.

Daniele Catalanotto: And this, there are two nuggets that I, nuggets of information that you're saying that I love so much. The first one is this.

Let me know in advance how long and how energy intensive it is. This makes a lot of difference, if it's 20 minutes of me answering a survey with yes, no, maybe, I can do that in a bus, no worries. But if it's 20 minutes or 5 minutes... So shorter time of you have to have your taxes document next to you and it's going to need some math, then it's okay, I need a desk.

I need to have my kids somewhere else. It's a complete different setup. And this is maybe, I think the first nugget of information that I really love is like preparing people for that information moment. And the second thing is,

The Real life disruption test

Daniele Catalanotto: do you know the five second test? The thing where we put a service to, or an image of something, and we show it to people for five seconds, and then we ask them, Okay, what's the information that you retain?

What is this doing? Because just trying to see how people get it. I think we should invent a new test. I don't know the name yet, but it could be the Grumpy Subway Test, or something like that, where we say, Go out, take your thing, do it in the worst subway line of your city. Yeah. See if you can do it or do it with a kid in your arms, and try to do it in that time.

Because if you have an infant, this will happen. You put some loud screaming noise and can you make it happen? This is, this will be a great

Megs Armour: test. Let's call it the real life disruption test because I really think that there are not many services that people genuinely sit down and think, I'm going to just do this.

I don't think there's that many anymore in the world. I really think most services are done simultaneously and you're competing for attention and there are distractions going on. I can only think of a few where I actually sit down in a room with the door shut on my own and think, I have to do this and I have to focus.

And it's the visa. No, it's things like a mortgage or a passport, but for everything else, yeah, why don't you try using my service on an overcrowded bus at rush hour with some kids whilst you have an AirPod in listening to a podcast. Now, how does the information land with you?

Daniele Catalanotto: A real life disruption test.

I think what we should do is, I will record my little one screaming. The next time he screams for an hour, I will record it. I will go in the streets and record some noise and we will make a special playlist. So that people can use it and say, Okay, now I'm trying it, it's like, how

Megs Armour: can I make it happen?

Yes. Okay. And we can have, maybe this can be like our own form of usability testing and we can be like, this is the playlist. We recommend you do it on this like really shitty boss.

And yeah, this is how you probe them if they're getting through it too easily as well. Yeah. That's a cool test. One. Okay.

The barbecue test

Megs Armour: One other test then that's come to mind in the topic of information and making it less overwhelming. So people, I call this the barbecue test at work. Whenever someone in my team shares like a really complicated slide or prototype or copy of text, whatever it is, I always turn around and I'm like, do you think if you showed this to your mom and dad at a barbecue, they would understand?

What you're trying to say do you actually, like, how would you actually explain this to them? And they'll explain it in very lovely, simple language and I go, okay, perfect. That's what we're using. Get rid of the flowery stuff. There's nothing worse than when you get. a really complicated piece of information from a business or from a colleague and you have to Google it and you're like, why did they pick this language?

Why did they pick coffee? That makes me feel like I, I don't know English myself. It's embarrassing. It sounds so obvious, but test your tone in coffee with your mom and dad. It's simple. Just and I think recently I have this experience. I really wanted to send money. From Canada to Scotland, international bank transfer.

You'd think in 2023, this is like a simple process. So I went to my two Canadian banks, HSBC and RBC, side note, Canadian banking, very archaic, sorry to anyone who works in that industry, it sucks. But I really tried to give them my money and send it to the UK. And I couldn't understand the process. It was like.

You need to do a wireless, interact, e transfer, two eligible accounts, special code, special number, this branch. And I was like, I don't know what we're talking about. You're like, I don't understand what is being said here. I Google, I was Googling it. I was like, what are these words? And then I go on to TransferWise or Wise now.

It's I wrote the language. It's it was my brain. I could just, I understood everything and it was the same process. It's just the language made sense. I think my parents could even do this transfer. So it's so important. Another test for us. The Parent Barbecue Test.

Daniele Catalanotto: Parent Barbecue Test. I love it.

Especially this is something that you can pretty much test. It's easy just by thinking, but also, there are so many tools that you put a text in it and it says for that grade level, someone can read that because it's easy enough to understand these are, these sentences are too complex, tools like a Hemingway app, who tells you this is way too long for a normal human, this kind of stuff is a, it exists.

So there is no reason to not do the barbecue

Megs Armour: test. Yes, so easy. And I think that people assume that people will be impressed with more expressive and flowery and complicated language. But again, the ROI of that is diminishing because people just flip. They're like confusing word. Don't know what we mean.

Going to go somewhere else. Like I didn't give these two banks my money because I couldn't understand what they were saying. Yeah, business implications, do the barbeque test.

Daniele Catalanotto: That's a good call to action. Now, on the stuff that you think, so you read the book, there were stuff that resonated with you, I see that.

The bad stuff: too granular

Daniele Catalanotto: What's the stuff that you say that stuff, not so good. Or, ah, I would improve that, this is, or it's just not my opinion, I have another opinion on that.

Megs Armour: Yeah, I'm not going to challenge any of these principles, they all make a lot of sense. I think my only negative comment would be that they are quite granular.

They are granular, simple interaction tips. And for me, I'm much more of a bigger person, bigger picture kind of person. So personally, I would have to add in more to go above and beyond. What's just in here. So I'd want to, I'd want to see something like, show me the ecosystem view, often services have so many handoffs that you don't really know about.

Maybe you need to get data from a third party, like a police report, and then share it back with me, and then maybe I'm going to take that to another third party company, like an AML or fraud or compliance people. And then there's this other. Surprise Vendor and Business Unit. And guess what? That adds days.

So I think often in public services, like yeah, visas, passports or financial services, like mortgages and things. There's so many players in your journey dipping in and out and you don't know about them. And it's going to make it way worse. And you not knowing it's going to make you frustrated as a customer.

You want to be able to see all these handoffs and see the ecosystem to set up expectations. So I'd add in stuff like you could make information less overwhelming by showing the full ecosystem view and who dips in and out when, and what that means for your timelines. So yeah, seeing who you directly and indirectly work with is helpful.

So maybe some bigger picture ones.

Missing in the book: pick communication channels in the end

Megs Armour: And then I think like we, I guess we spoke about this before, but picking your communication channel after, the information that goes in it. I think it's so often, especially in consulting, at the beginning of a project or a program, people jump to defining the end channel or format.

People are like, yes, we're handing over a PowerPoint deck, or we are handing over a service blueprint, or we're building an app, or a nudge, or a website, but we... We don't know the information that's going in it, so why would we have picked this live end output or touchpoint? Like, how can, we don't even know how they're going to use it or where they're going to use it or what they'll do with that going forward if they're using it on a bus, we haven't decided the, yeah what's in it, so we can't decide the channel. So deciding on that channel and format after, the information that goes in is maybe another one I'd, I would add in,

Daniele Catalanotto: but yeah. It's extremely strong, this idea of saying first start with what's the action that you want people to take what's the information that you have to share so that people take this action.

And then suddenly you realize, okay, what's the right moment. And so now we know the moment, what's the touch point, interaction, medium, channel where we can do this at the best. And it's a kind of a good flip because we are very. visual people. So therefore we always think, okay, oh, it's going to be an ad.

Oh, it's going to be a phone call, it's going to be an email. It's wait

Megs Armour: for it. Wait for it. Let's wait till the end. Yeah. And I'm sure reading your whole book, that's very clear, but if someone only jumps into this chapter, it would maybe be nice to be like, guys, it's actually first. Think about what the user needs in terms of information and then let's think about where they're going to use it.

And then let's decide on the channel or the format. There's an order to these things so that it's

Daniele Catalanotto: useful.

What this book doesn't do

Daniele Catalanotto: And I extremely appreciate your critique because the critique you're making is for me the perfect, there are sometimes people critiquing something and you say, Oh, it's good that you feel that way.

It's good that you feel that frustration because that was meant by design sometimes, and for me, there is something that I've always had the feedback that I love the most when it is, when people read one of my books and say, Daniele, your language, it's a bit simple, it's ah, okay. And sometimes, sometimes you say, fuck. It's a big problem for me. It's that's good to know, because then maybe don't read any of my books, because they are all like that. It's the goal is that the language is very simple. And on what you're saying, I think there are some very good books, on a bit more broader aspect of service design,

Book: Good Services

Daniele Catalanotto: there is one specific book that I always recommend, which is one, one level higher, which is Good Services, How to Design Services That Work by Lou Do.

Because for me, she nailed that part, exactly the one that you mentioned, this higher level, a bit more intellectual, but still applicable, not the bullshitty be empathic, where it's okay, good. That's very philosophical, but how do we do it? And she is right at the, at this little middle level, between philosophical, very tactical and practical and she is there at the, at that right level.

And I think for people who are expecting this type of information, I think one of the best books is definitely hers because it's unbeatable. And I think it's, that's exactly the type of feedback that I love to hear because it helps me to redirect people towards the right book, because this is one book that does.

Trying to do only one little thing, which is giving very tiny, simple things that people can apply to mobile. But I think if, for someone like you, who is a bit more at a, let's be honest, at a level of service design, and maturity of service design, which is very high, I would say then these types of books are definitely more your daily jam,

Megs Armour: I would say.

Yeah, I think you should make that clear up front. I think you should say I understand there's a scale of granularity to big picture and this is where I sit and this is my space and I'm owning it, and I'm not trying to be something else. And I think that's really cool. And I would appreciate that.

Daniele Catalanotto: And it's, in fact, it's something that is done in the introduction and what your feedback reveals to me. is that it should be done even stronger, and that's something that is interesting to me, seeing that, oh, this people need to know where the book stays, and by having the, if you're looking for this, That book is great, and having this granularity level is something that is quite quite strong.

What else did you dislike about the book? What else do you think, did you do that?

Megs Armour: There's nothing I thought. Damn, I hate this principal. He is talking shit. I think they all make they all just make sense. I genuinely love the structure of a real life example, a summary of what it means, and a question, an action question. I hate when you read a theoretical service design book and it's graphs and templates and you think, Okay, that's cool, but how do I apply that to what I'm doing every day?

For me, it was missing maybe the bigger picture stuff. It was missing contextual things like language, environment, and channel. Because that's exactly where my mind goes. There is, I hate to, I don't have a good negative gem for you other than that. So I'm sorry.

Daniele Catalanotto: And what's one resource that you will recommend that will solve this?

Going further

Daniele Catalanotto: What's a good companion where you say because, there is many books work well in pairs, there are some great books, for example, I love to read books about productivity with mindfulness books, and have both of them at the same time, because it gives you like this one approach is just very do work.

And the other one, chill out, it's gonna be okay. What's another book that you would say would be a good pairing for this one?

Book: The Service Organization

Megs Armour: Okay because your your tips are very granular and actionable, and they have a lot of utility immediate utility, something that's much more of a bible...

would be this book by Kate Tarling. I don't know if you've not, you've probably read it, the Service Organization. This is like the Bible for how explaining eloquently how services work in the real world and winning support for doing that internally. It's a world class book for setting up and scaling service design, forming rituals around it.

And I think actually pairing both ends. This is something you can take to actually design something today. And hey, this is like a Bible of how you should think about long term setting up and scaling, communicating service design is beautiful and could work so well for someone. So that would be my... The first little nugget of what I'd suggest people do, the entire time I was reading your chapter, I was also thinking about like visual communication inspiration.

There's a lot of what you're saying is you have to pick the right chunks of information and display it in a way that doesn't freak people out and make them flip to a competitor. And when I'm trying to get inspiration myself I use two tools that are maybe a bit more practical, actually.

Publication: The Pudding

Megs Armour: One of them is called the pudding. I don't know if you've heard of it. Basically like a digital publication explains ideas with visual essays. It's just really inspiring. Like it really helps you think about how could I tell a cool story with data? What, how are other people doing that?

And changes like the style sort of changes throughout all the different examples they have. So I checked that one out

Website: Information is Beautiful

Megs Armour: and then in a similar vein, the site called Information is Beautiful. It's just a site dedicated to making sense of the world and using like graphics and data visuals to explain and distill and clarify a lot of data.

And for me, when I'm, when I do my big investigation in an organization to work out what the hell is going on and I'm left with all this data, I'm like, What do I do with this ? I need inspiration. So I do turning to sites like that just to see how other people are doing it and what work and steal from them.

Video: Speaking CEO: Business Fluency For Designers

Megs Armour: So those, my last two, and I have one final last thing to share before I go.

Daniele Catalanotto: I see it's an exciting one. I see. It's an

Megs Armour: exciting one. Exciting one because it's from a Canadian design leader, which is cool. One thing I really thought about when I was reading your chapter was this video called Speaking Ciego and it's by a guy called Jess McMullen.

You might have heard of him. He's a design guru in Canada. The video is 30 minutes long. It's recorded in UX Lisbon in, I think, 2019 and it's all about designers understanding and speaking the language of C suite. And considering the right information, the right topics, the right time to communicate with C suite.

And I think in his video, he shares three really nice frameworks to help designers think and speak and prioritize like an executive, thinking like, what actually keeps CEOs up at night? What are you actually going to speak to them about? And look, designers don't need more methods to learn how to design solutions or customers.

People like you make that really easy. But I do think designers need better methods to communicate with businesses. And to communicate with executives and I think that starts with language and with sharing information and speaking CEO So that's a really cool video to check out and he's a Canadian design guru.

So I love that

Daniele Catalanotto: I think you've shared A lot of very good resources to go further I'm really appreciative of that because as I said, it's no book, no TED talk is good alone, it's like wine, it goes with something, you pair a good wine with with a good meal, and I think the pairing of books and information is something that we can always think about.

Thank you. Now you gave us a few pairs that people can play with and that they can have some lovely information meals, if you can call it like

Megs Armour: that. Yes, information meals. I love it. We've coined a few terms in this chat.

Daniele Catalanotto: We're quite creative. We can do a new terminology of design,

Megs Armour: Yes, perfect.

Okay. As long as you credit me on it. Absolutely,

Daniele Catalanotto: I will. I will. Nice. First, a big thank you for your time. Is there anything that you would like to give a shout out to?

Get in touch with EY and Megs

Megs Armour: Definitely. So in terms of EY, I like the philosophy that you're just, you're always recruiting in life. You never know when someone that you meet will come back into your life years later.

And I always love meeting new designers. So we're in a pool of 20 service designers, probably 150 digital end to end designers. If you wanna learn more about that, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. I love meeting with people across North America to chat about what we do. And then yeah, if you're, if you wanna chat to me about my sort of design career and what I'm up to, then I also love to just set up virtual coffee chats.

So Please don't hesitate to reach out and yeah, there's power in building a community of like-minded people I'm always looking to grow it. But yeah, I've really enjoyed doing this conversation and it was great for me too. So thank you.

Daniele Catalanotto: Thanks so much. And I'm sure people will get excited about all the barbecue tests and other tests that you have in your toolbox to improve services in the future.

in non traditional

Megs Armour: ways. Yes, definitely. I love that. There's more in the toolbox. We'll save it for next time.

Closing words

Daniele Catalanotto: Again, a big thank you for spending the time today, for investing the time and reading and commenting, and I've learned so many things today. I love this test that we created today together. I think that was a very interesting bit that...

I definitely will try it out right after with the little one, and for that, a big thank you to you, and I wish you again a lovely

Megs Armour: end of day. Awesome. Thanks, Daniel. Appreciate it. Catch you later.

Bertrand is the co-founder and head of experience design at Vahumana. Beyond business, Bertrand shares his knowledge as a lecturer in schools and universities. Finally, he is working with the French chapter of the Service Design Network to spread the word about Service Design.

Discover his work

• Linkedin Profile

• Vahumana

• Service Design Network France

With Bertrand, we discuss the whole book and especially its blind spots.

This conversation led us to explore topics like: 

• How microservices can create a smile.

• How less information can be an act of love.

• How to include spirituality in the toolkit of the service designer.

• Man and His Symbols by Carl Jung

• Psychology and Religion by Carl Jung

• The World As I See It by Albert Einstein

• The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle

• The Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley

Made with AI
This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

I've sent my next book in advance to Service Design nerds from all around the world to see what resonates, what can be improved and how to go further after you read that book.

In this third stop of this international book tour we stopped in France with Bertrand Cochet.

Bertrand is the co-founder and head of experience design at Vahumana. Outside of business Bertrand shares his knowledge as a lecturer in schools and universities, and is working with the French chapter of the Service Design Network to spread the word about Service Design.

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

How microservices can create a smile.

How less information can be an act of love.

How to include spirituality in the toolkit of the service designer.

Thanks so much to Bertrand for this lovely book critic and insightful conversation.

Daniele Catalanotto: Bertrand, it's such a pleasure to have you

Betrand Cochet: here today. It's a pleasure too. Thank you, Daniele.

Meet Bertrand

Daniele Catalanotto: To get started, when you are in a party how do you present yourself?

Betrand Cochet: It's a really good question because I usually present myself as Bertrand. I'm a French guy living in Lyon. I have many years as you can see with my gray hairs. Many years of practices, of experiences in different fields. But speaking about my work is pretty difficult in a party.

Because usually people don't realize what we are doing and it's a bit complicated for them to get this. So usually I summarize with I work in IT services, helping people to do their tasks and activities in a better way than usually it is. That's the point. Sometimes I'm.

I'm a bit frustrated not to be able to go further. And sometimes I have the good the good luck to, to meet someone who said, Hey, I know it's ux, or it's a design, and then we can go further in that presentation, it's not usual to meet this kind of people.

The pain of explaining Service Design

Daniele Catalanotto: Yeah I think it's a problem that we have worldwide. You're sitting today in France that you have exactly the same problem that I have in most parties, which is if I say service design, I will have so many questions, and right now I'm not up to it.

So I'm just gonna say something that, I work in design and I teach it. And that might close the conversation. What do you do?

Betrand Cochet: Even sometimes when you say design, it's not well understood. Then they can reply, Oh, you are doing objects, industrial design, and so on.

Daniele Catalanotto: The classical questions, which is, oh, what type of objects do you

Betrand Cochet: make?

Exactly. Yeah. I feel your pain. I feel your

Daniele Catalanotto: pain. But

Betrand Cochet: as you said, it's a universal pain for service designers and even graphic designers. Indeed.

Vahumana

Daniele Catalanotto: And so if we imagine we're in this in, in this party and as your friend, I will then come and basically do what you can't do because you are someone who's too humble to do it.

I would say, Hey, but you didn't know you didn't mention that you were the co founder of a company who has a very great name. Maybe you should tell him about that. Yes,

Betrand Cochet: with pleasure the name of the company co created five years ago now is Vaumana so it's an agency inside an IT company based in Paris and the will of of its director was to create a place where experience, data.

And strategy will be at the good place. Then we created it in Lyon and the company is called Vaumana. So it came from the old Persian name which means that you are someone With good principle, that is, good link with your book and all these principles. And the principle that led our company is good think, good talk, and good action.

And the four founders were totally aligned with this principle and these values. And we try to work with our clients and with our colleagues. In this way with the respect of the human beings, what we are, what are our cognitive limitations, and also to, to work in in a good respect and, yeah to be human, between human, doing things sometimes complex, sometimes simple, and it seems basic.

Thank you. But

Daniele Catalanotto: it's not so easy. I love how your, the name, is already like a manifesto, it already says a lot, where sometimes the names are like just placeholders to help people say something, and here it's, When you explain the name people already know, oh, okay, this is the type of agency or the type of consultancy it is, which is very different from what we see a lot in the consultancy work, which is very business driven, pure business.

And here I feel this is starting with the human touch which is. Which is definitely lovely.

Betrand Cochet: We can measure it when we talk to candidates during their recruitments or with our clients. They appreciate that.

Daniele Catalanotto: And might you, so I have a question for you because every con this is a conversation I had the other day with with Marc Fonteijn, and he said something interesting where I said, ah, I think the maturity of service design in Switzerland isn't so high.

And he said something interesting and provocative, which was, every, but every country feels the maturity of service design in their country isn't so high, but, I think that will never change because it's just, an imposter syndrome thing. So my question to you would be that one.

How can we spread Service Design?

Daniele Catalanotto: As you're someone who's teaching it, who is building a community around it, what are the things that you have done in the past where you have seen, oh, this is working to share service design further. This is stuff that works well to teach it and to spread it. Because I think many of us are really willing to spread it.

But sometimes lack the experience on how to get started. Maybe you have a few experiences to share.

Betrand Cochet: Yes. I totally agree with Marc. I talked with him last year in Copenhagen during the Global Conference of the Service Design Network. It's a real point. In France, as in Switzerland, maybe in, in South Europe we have kind of problem.

We service design and more globally with methodologies to address complex problems to get and to find good solutions. I ask sometimes why when we met people from from England, from most of Europe, from U. S. All are totally aware, even clients they are all aware of what is service design what are the good opportunities that service design offer.

I still have no, no answer to that, but as I can say we did a lot of events in France, in Paris, in Lyon. We gather a lot of people, usually with a background of UX sometimes with a design thinking approaches, but real service designers are quite rare here. And we can see that as you do a lot of people are spreading the word showing what's the impact and the interest of service design.

We have to do a lot with education and be quite patient. When I run a session at university, I present the methodology of service design, but I don't stop at it.

I try to explain, impact the interest, the tools, but if students or even clients don't want to work with it, that's not a problem for me. But I know that some points, some insights. We'll do the way in their brain and sometimes maybe they will realize that, oh, it was interesting. Maybe service blueprints could be interesting for my project or for to create my own agency for students at the end of the education session.

It's, I can't say I'm a pure service designer. I manage that's. People need time here to understand fully what we can do with it.

Daniele Catalanotto: I think it's extremely inspiring. This notion of our job in spreading service design is the job of a good gardener, where, you put the seed, you put the water in, and then you let the plant grow, and you don't decide all of it, but you can be there, you can be of support, and if the plant doesn't want to come, it's okay, sometimes they don't want, sometimes they need a bit of And Sometimes they need a stick for where they can grow with.

And sometimes it just comes out directly and you didn't do anything because you didn't even put the seed, it just came from another flower. And I think this is this, I love your humility here and say our job is just to continuously share and then plant the seeds. And that's our job. We can't do much more.

And as long as we do that. We have the hope that if it's of use for people, they will use it. And if it's not, it's okay because they found something else that is useful for them. I love this, service design is not the solution. It's one aspect and we teach that. And sometimes it's something else and that's perfectly okay.

And I

Betrand Cochet: remember a talk with Birgit Mager, the founder of Service Design. And she said, we can't change an organization without The top level, the C level, if they are not included in the tools, in the vision, we can't ask to people under the C level to work with that kind of methods. It's a pity, but it's like that.

And I can measure it with some clients where all the stakeholders from the simple, and it's not bad to say that, but the simple employee. To the top level. If they're all aligned with this, that, that kind of vision and way of work, then the job is done and then you can hear and when it happened it's just a magical moment when you, the c e o of a company said, Hey last time you run a service, blue blueprints.

for the project, for a specific project, but I reuse it for another project with my team and it works. And then we know that we have done

Daniele Catalanotto: our job. I love it, this idea of if I had to visualize it, it's like a pyramid where you have to work on both levels, like making sure that, sure, the C level decision makers can.

Design and drive the culture in one direction, but at the same time that below, people see why it's made, why it's made, why it's useful. And when we manage to, to do it on both sides, then it's where the magic happens. And often we have to start somewhere, and either we start below or we start at the top and And it's a good reminder.

It stuff takes time. Having a tree, the trees behind you, it's for me are a good example. They didn't come in one year, they didn't come in two years, the size they have now, which allows to, for you to enjoy their shade, their shade had to grow for years and and sometimes.

Just reminding ourselves that it needs time is a good good relaxing factor. Do your work and it will come.

Betrand Cochet: Exactly. And we can address at some moments, only a CEO or a middle manager or an employee. They agree that they will talk with all the company, with their colleagues. And the magical tree.

We brought from bottom to top or from top to bottom, but we have to get all that line. To get to get success.

Daniele Catalanotto: I see that the conversation is already quite deep and rich in metaphors. I'm excited also to see the next metaphors that will come out of this conversation. And the first question that I'd like to ask you about the book that I shared with you a little bit in advance is the following question.

The good stuff: Pausing music in hotlines

Daniele Catalanotto: Is there anything in that book, that you felt, this is something that I resonate with and that I'd like to put a light on?

Betrand Cochet: That's a good question. All the book is very interesting and I don't say that only because we are face to face now.

It's as you introduce it it's not about service design methods or methodology. It's about tips, insights that can help people who want to work with this vision.

One of your principle I loved really is when you are waiting at a call for an enterprise, you have to reach the client service and you have a music. that are running for minutes and minutes, and you don't want to listen.

And I really love your idea. I never thought about it. But just to be able to press zero, to stop that fucking music, because I just want silence. Or maybe the robot is able to say Okay, what do you prefer? You prefer rock, classical music, and yeah. I love that. Thank you so much

Daniele Catalanotto: for that.

Indeed. I have to give credit where credit is due. This is an idea from my dear friend, Romain Pitet and which definitely is something very small, but just say, this, I hate this music, please let me stop it.

Betrand Cochet: Awesome. Just the power of microservices. Indeed.

Daniele Catalanotto: Indeed. Microservices are very strong to, to change the emotions.

Betrand Cochet:

The good stuff: Frustration chapter

Betrand Cochet: The frustration part was very interesting for me, for many reasons. As I tried to explain during your introduction and how to introduce myself at a party.

We live with frustration, good frustration, when we explain what we are doing, but also when we are working.

with clients on some kind of projects, and then how to manage that, how to be able to to cope with that, that, that kind of emotion we can feel as designer and to get the job done, then this this chapter of your book is very clear for people who want to understand how they can act and more to, to change that that usually when you are designing services, we, because our brain and your cognitive system needs to to do some economy.

We will go quickly to the simplest approach, but working with clients on complex subjects, you can do that. And usually we can we can miss some information. We can miss some good subservices. We can add to the things we will create a new book for that. And that part about frustration is very interesting.

The principle don't give me too many information. For a problem I can't solve. It's so interesting because when you are performing a meeting with colleagues or when you are working during a workshop with clients, it's often happen. We have a lot inform of information and when we try to talk and to analyze all this information, sometimes we're stuck with that because too many things.

To understand, too many things to manage, then this principle is very lovely because it's a time to say stop. And it's also

a posture of a service designer, of globally designers, so people who are working in services to be able to say stop. And I would just add something I use lovely. Also, because in your introduction you put that word and it's something very interesting because usually books are very oriented to problem solving for methods.

And then you add in that book a kind of emotional or more human way to interpret and interact. With others and what they are saying or doing. So thank also for that because I think when we perform too many projects and actions, sometimes we forget to listen to our hearts what we like to do or love to do what we don't like also to do and to be in, in a good posture.

Daniele Catalanotto: It's super interesting, this idea that. I like how you frame that, also in the workplace this notion of if you love people enough, that there is stuff that you don't need to tell them because they can't act on it. And that it's. The real love is not the love of sharing everything you know, but sharing all that the person can use and make something with.

Because if I share so much information with you, that in the end, you're overwhelmed, in fact, it wasn't love, it was protection. It was, I just wanted to give you everything, because, so that you can't say, I did hide something, but the real love would be... I'm okay that there are parts that you don't need and I take responsibility for not giving you all of it, which is like a counter intuitive thing, that it's because of love that you are maybe not giving everything, but at that time it's not needed and it's okay.

And I, in the workplace, that's it, that approach of it's showing love to not give every piece of information is like a. An interesting shift.

Betrand Cochet: I agree. We are used with cognitive load. So giving too many informations will stuck the brain and then it's difficult to think about solutions about even a good way of thinking together.

So I totally agree with that principle.

Daniele Catalanotto: And it's funny, it's I had this conversation just this week with a student who asked me the question. Yeah, it's all good, this, but... What can I do with it? And I was like, this is the perfect question. Just please continue to ask that question.

Whenever somebody teaches you something, always come back to, Okay, I understood it, but at that moment, for me, it's not useful. So please make it useful to me. Okay, now I know that I've missed something in the sharing part. I think this is such a good question, the question. At the moment, it's good information, but not useful.

So what am I missing? What is the part that maybe you missed in sharing that makes it useful to

Betrand Cochet: me? That's a question of alignment. We can measure it also regarding the previous discussion we had about alignment. Service design spreading all, all around, that's the same thing. It's not for you now.

Okay. Don't go further in that and find another way to give information and to help. Yeah, I agree.

Daniele Catalanotto: It's, and it's quite, this part, again is super interesting to me. It's like this additional layer of, there might be moments where you share stuff, where you think it's valuable, but the other one just doesn't see the value.

And. It's a good moment to just verify the alignment that maybe it's, you didn't, you weren't clear enough and then you can adapt it, but also there is the possibility that it just isn't useful at that moment. And again, this posture of humility that you bring, which is, Oh, sorry about that. Then just let me reassure you, it's fully okay that you don't do anything with it yet.

Which is very, again, an act of, if we go back to this word, love, of saying, ah, it's okay, you don't need me, you don't need that, feel free to continue your journey without me, or without that, which is, again, a pretty, pretty great act of love, of saying to someone, At that stage, you don't need me, it's okay, go your way, or you don't need what I just shared, and it's okay, I can be humble enough to step away from the world.

Yeah,

Betrand Cochet: it can also have an impact over creativity. If you are performing a workshop and someone is in that kind of mind, then it will block all people gather during that moment. It will block all the creativity all the feelings, and it's not good. It's also interesting to, to be able from each parts.

To say this, I don't need for that moment, or this, I don't understand it, maybe it's for later. Yeah,

Daniele Catalanotto: and the simple fact of showing humility, then... In some way, acts as some, an example that people can reuse that where you're basically telling people without saying in the future, tell me again when it's not useful, but you're not saying it like as a principle you're just acting it.

And then people say, ah, okay, with him, he's okay that that we interact and that they say, this is useful. This isn't useful because. He shows humility, so he's not in the preacher role of this is true, this is false, but he's more on the coach or guide role, where he says, this might be one way.

Let's try it. Ah, you don't like that way. There are many other ways. Let's try another one. Exactly.

Betrand Cochet: And Marc Stickdorn and Adam Lawrence. During the session about expect facilitation they explain that. And one of the advice is to begin session workshops or other kind of activities with groups just to begin to begin and to end your session with what are the objectives.

All the sessions, what do you need, what you don't need, and also as a facilitator to, to be able to express this for them and to say, okay, this, I don't need for the moment. This I need really, if you want to to go at the end of the session with all what we have to do

Daniele Catalanotto: and to create.

Awesome. Thanks so much for sharing. It's always impressive to me, to see how a few words, once you talk about them, what comes out is always so much more profound and richer. And and that's like the exercise that I'd like also to promote here is whenever you read a book take it out, bring it to a friend and say, I just read that.

And this, I like this. I didn't like and chat about it because then it's in the conversation. That's what you'll make out of most of the book, because the book are just a few words, but the conversation is what will bring you further and bring you to the next phase.

The bad stuff

Daniele Catalanotto: I'd like to transition on the parts of the book where you say this is stuff that Is there I wouldn't agree with directly or where I would add something more to make it more accurate? Were there parts where you say, ah, there, I have a good critique to share?

Betrand Cochet: Good question. Because I read the book twice, to be honest, because I wanted to prepare the session. No, I, I didn't find things with, I'm not agree with, so I think we share the same vision of what is service design, the way we need to work with others with the tools, with the methods with even the spirit of the service design.

So I was totally aligned and I wanted to thank you for that because sometimes we can. Read some books and some chapters can say, Oh, no, I don't agree. Oh the references the author used for that parts. I'm not aligned with, because I have others in mind and I would have preferred it's my preference that's it all about them.

But in, in the case we are talking about, no it's. Very good.

The bad stuff: Using the body and energies

Betrand Cochet: Maybe what I'm missing is it's the, what you introduced with level, that that's what it's a major question for me now because how can I help people to, to work with more the human approach?

We usually work with our mind, all the mental models, et cetera, et cetera. But with the body, we don't work so much. With body, I would say during a workshop helping people to move to put their feet on the paper, on the ground, and to feel what it did to have the feet on it.

Thanks. If the word written on the paper on the ground creates inside me,

in emotion, not in mental. And this is a special way to work, not useful not usual, sorry. So it's very interesting. Mental, body, but I also work with emotion as you do. But also, with what I call energies, it's a word not useful in, again, not in use in professional fields, but it exists. We can feel sometimes you will work with a group you never met before, and then it will be just a perfect moment.

All people are aligned. The ideas will be great, but sometimes not. What's the difference? Individuals? Maybe. You? Maybe with a small night, with kids, etc. Maybe you are not in the best approach to be able to perform. But I assume that there is others. And another thing, and I call it energy, and at the moment I read a lot of books about that, because it's very interesting, and psychologists work a lot on the energies of the groups, and it's very useful, and as service design is linked with people and with groups, with communities, it can be interesting, if you agree with me, To maybe to introduce a more global vision of a human being and what it can do with others.

Daniele Catalanotto: I love your critique. I will reformulate it in my words and you tell me if I understood you right. From what I understand what you're saying is the book is quite mental, it has many stuff which is good at the mental state. It has a few approaches which are pretty good at the emotional state, but two parts are missing and that's the stuff that I like.

The one part is like the body part, how can we Stop thinking with the brain and emotions, but more with our full body, how can we use the body as also something and I think that's definitely something which is out of the radar in this book. And the other part is this as the, as the husband of a preacher, I will call it spirituality, obviously.

Also, energy, spirituality you can englobe it in these elements. And and it's something that. That, I think is missing in that book and that I'd like, so the body part, I'm I'm not an expert on, and I'd like to hear from you maybe a few tips on that. On the spiritual spirituality part, I think I might have a bias that I can share today, which is, I'm, I would say I'm quite a spiritual person.

But I've learned that in business, I don't show it that much, and slowly, as Hair becomes grey, you start to become a little smarter. I'm realizing that, in fact, there is a big space for that too, that giving space for spirituality. Sometimes you just have to change the name because then it might scare people, you can use other names, Reflection, Time of Silence, and this kind of stuff.

It's just a question of

Betrand Cochet: definition. Yeah.

Daniele Catalanotto: Yes, definitely. Because when you redefine these words, And then you let people experience it. It's quite strong. And it's another tool, and instead of having this view of, yes, we are service designers, we are designers, consultants, whatever you want to call ourselves, and obviously this is very mental, it would be sad to say, Hey, we are using the 10 percent which is here of the human let's use also the rest.

And I think that's a very good reminder. So might I ask you on the, on both the kind of body part and the spirituality energy part what are your experiences? Working in services and maybe in businesses, how do you translate that? How do you bring that into that world?

Because I'm very curious here.

Betrand Cochet: We, with physical approach it's quite easy. It's just puts people gathered in a room in movements, not during all a session, but sometimes, usually in service design or design thinking. When you ask the people to write ideas on post-its, then usually you ask them stick it to the wall and explain to others so people are obliged to go there and come back.

This is movement. This is a small part of movement, but if you want to to make a pole, you can do it by people going from apart to another and stay. where they want to stay, and others are able to see, okay, five guys are there. But for me, I feel better here. And others can move and switch. And it's a way to introduce physical activity during a mental intellectual session.

That's the first part. And there's many others. Augusto Boal, the guy who work a lot with with theater in, in, just a moment, in activities for helping people at the global states. He used that kind of of,

Daniele Catalanotto: and it's quite, the whole triage thing is extremely strong, I feel, especially from what I've noticed, there is one thing That I like these days when it comes to psychology and mindfulness is which I'd like to see how we can translate that into the service design world. For example, when you have a headache, there are different approaches to, to handle that headache.

There is one approach, which is I don't take any medication. I don't care about it. This is just mental. I just go through it. One approach. Another approach is let's take medication and it will pass. And then there is another approach, which is like the mindfulness approach where we say, oh, let me concentrate on it.

Let me just ask myself and ask the language is a bit strange, but let me ask the headache. What does it want to tell me? Should I sleep more? Maybe should I drink? And once I've done that, let me concentrate on it and see where is it? Does it move? What shape does it have? Is it warm? Is it cold?

And one thing that I experienced in doing this, which is a funny experience, is like I had this experience trying to concentrate a lot on it and to really understand it, like the shape for, and then suddenly I got angry because I was like, it disappeared. I can't find it anymore.

Which is extremely interesting. And so I'm asking myself, how can we. How where instead of people just thinking about experiences, how can we just bring them, hey, here is a room, it's a reception, go through the reception, move in it, feel how it is, feel is the distance big, is it short, where do you feel trapped, where do you feel, oh I'm welcome, maybe you don't have an explanation for it, it's okay, but where did you have different feelings and emotions in your body, where you felt that?

Here, I. I don't know why, but at this place of the reception, I didn't feel okay. And this can be used also as this more energetic body experience where people use it to explore what is a service in a way that isn't like the typical mental thing.

Betrand Cochet: You can also feel that that thoughts when people are talking about a problem. You can feel that it's difficult for them. It's emotional. There is political issues and a lot of things you can't see. It's behind the scenes. But if you come with them and to help understand, Okay, what's your feeling now?

And expose your feeling to others. And then others can react to that. Understand better what's the problem. At the moment, and then you can create a kind of empathy with the group or in face to face too, and ask them to realize when the problem began. We talked about your headache. Usually when I do the same thing than you, I realize that, oh, maybe two years two hours before I read an email I didn't like.

It hurt, hurted me. And, oh, two hours later, I have a big headache. And if I'm able to get into introspection in my body and in my feelings, I can link the pain with the origin of the pain. In a group, or in professional field, if you can do that, all the small problems can pass away. And it's very interesting, and it's yeah, spirituality approach.

How to bring spirituality in the business world

Daniele Catalanotto: Yeah, indeed. And I like the fact that, I think this is one key that I'm learning from you is the fact that When using a word like spirituality, which can be understood in many different ways, depending on your culture, your upbringing, your context. It just needed to say, okay, when I speak about spirituality, that's how I define it for me.

Thank you so let me ask you, how do you define it when you're working with more business y people, and you want to make people a bit aware of the more holistic work that you're doing? How do you speak about spirituality? How do you onboard people with it?

Betrand Cochet: Today, I never use... The term spirituality or all the other words linked to that, because as you said, in professional field, it's not, we're not aware that we can do that because there is a lot of judgments about that.

One thing, very important, I traveled a lot for leisure, but also for professional work, and I realized that. Every people I met have a goal for and this goal will be defined during during the life, during the experience. But we all have a high goal for us. And when you are working, sometimes you forget or you put aside that goal.

And maybe it's linked to the years after years experience after experience. You realize that your goal is not so far from what you can do and act all the day. For when I work with other professionals, I just try to show them that the present moment is important. It's also spirituality, if you read that kind of books about the present.

We have a walk, we, where we are always. Looking at what was before and what we have to do, but when do we take time to say, okay, it's now, we are Tuesday it's 11 o'clock and what am I doing now? Am I thinking about the next hour, the previous hour? No, I'm just here now and during workshops or a working session, you can introduce that approach to say, okay we have talked a lot many ideas that came, then we'll do a little stop and just get aligned with ourself and look and feel what's done.

And then it's usually a nice moment for the group because it's a kind of pause. They can listen and understand what they've done and what the, what will go outside from the group after that is usually richer that if you don't do that little step and to get into the presence and only the presence.

Daniele Catalanotto: I'm not sure if I can hear you. Absolutely clear. It's a, it was one of these in the moment moments, where you're like, okay I'm totally here. I totally agree with it. Maybe it, it reminds me, let me share an experience which was quite similar to this which I tried to make with a, with an organization, which I'm helping at the moment.

And we took moments. So as it's a social organization and that has also a church side, the spiritual aspect is easier to bring. But, there was an expectation that as it's strategy work, we're going to be very business. And I always try to bring back the spiritual aspect. And one exercise that we made.

that we took, which worked really well and that I think, now thinking back at what we're, at our conversation I think could work in many settings is the moments of listening, and what we basically did, we said, okay, now we'll just have a stop. You can go out, nature is not far away go out.

Your task is basically just to go out and listen and feel. So we have this project. You've thought a lot about it. We've practiced a lot. We did a lot. Now just go out and see if there is something that you resonate with. See if there is something that speaks to you. And strangely enough, when people come back, they have these little moments where they were like, Oh, I was.

I was next to a farm and I saw this and it made me realize, blah, blah, blah. And then they tell you something and then it's like a tipping point in the conversation where suddenly you have the image that unlocks the rest of the conversation. And everybody suddenly said, that's the image I agree totally with.

That's exactly what we should do. For example, there was an image for that group that was a person seeing rabbits in cages. And where she said, oh, but there is everything they need outside of the cage. Why do we put people in the cage? And there was this big reflection of, but are we putting our employees in the cage?

Are we doing the same? And because there is already everything. And so maybe our work is not just to give resources, but to give freedom because resources are there. And, this kind of unlocked a whole other conversation, Which was much more previously very business y, what are the resources we need, what's the plan we need?

And there suddenly it was on the very cultural aspect of how can we free people of the cages that the organization has created. Without us knowing it, and how can we there change the language? How can we change our posture so that people feel that, yes, we are, they are bosses, but still there is a lot of freedom and a lot of available resources.

And, and I'm thinking now that we had this conversation, I'd like to play with that in more business structures, where I think if we put people outside and they see stuff and they come back and they have images of I don't know why, but this resonated with me, sometimes it's the, I don't know why is it always a good start, I don't know why, but it resonated with me.

And then somebody else says, that's quite interesting. Yeah. That resonates with me too, because of this. And then maybe the other one has the other part that that can unlock it. And you perfectly

Betrand Cochet: introduce the physical approach in your example, when you ask them to go out for a walk. And we know that the, our brain.

Needs that when it's too overloaded with information and things like that.

Resources to go further

Daniele Catalanotto: Bertrand, I have to say, I didn't expect that we would speak about spirituality today, but I'm extremely happy for it. It's so cool. Let me come with the next question, which is What are resources, elements that you'd like to share for people to go a step further?

So you told me right before that you read a lot of books about energy, spirituality, whatever we want to call it at the moment, that it's inspiring your work. Maybe do you have a few references that you'd like to share on that topic or in general that you think would be a kind of a good next reading or a good next exploration for people interested in these topics?

I have

Betrand Cochet: many books I can talk about.

Books from Carl Jung

Betrand Cochet: Maybe it's not so easy for people who don't use to read a book about psychology, that Jung is a very good example of psychologists to manage both psychology and spirituality.

And the links he did was were evident.

For me so it's a good point of departure.

Books about Albert Einstein

Betrand Cochet: I also read a book about Albert Einstein, not a book about what he imagined and created, but the way he was living, and he explained a lot and a lot of things when he was stuck with his mind. What he did to get the solution without thinking.

And it's very interesting because he was highly spiritual and he was also highly aware of what a human being can do to go further with, regarding his own limits.

Book: The Power of Now

Betrand Cochet: Eckhart Tolle wrote a book which was really stunning for me because he is able to mix a lot of vision of belief that's. Totally aligned with what we are and the goal of our life, and the way we are acting everyday life for that goal or not.

And we can measure that sometimes we forget some part of that goal, and it helps to reorganize the way we are living, we are thinking, and we are working too. But it's totally a spiritual book. Yes, it can help.

Lovely.

Daniele Catalanotto: Awesome.

Thanks so much for these recommendations. I'm sure people will have with it a complimentary review that can help them to not see just one part of the way that we work, which is the thinking or the emotions, but also add to it the body and the kind of more spiritual part. And for that, I'm extremely thankful to you for adding like Putting a bit of light on the blind spot that is existing in that book and which I think enabled also this lovely conversation.

Get in touch with Bertrand

Daniele Catalanotto: And now I'd like to ask you: how can people either get in touch with you, read more from you, discover more of your work?

Betrand Cochet: It's quite easy. There is a website, an application called LinkedIn. It's just perfect for that. Seriously, it's quite easy to contact me. To get discussion even if people doesn't agree with me and my position I explain now or if they want to do further in, in that that thinking. They can contact me, yes, on LinkedIn but also with the agency Vaumana and then, yeah, I'm totally open to.

To discussion, to, to organize also maybe events when we can talk about service design, hopefully but also this other part of what we are and what we can do for us and for others.

Daniele Catalanotto: So I will leave this like a call to action to the community. For those interested in working on the holistic experience taking the whole human into consideration invite Bertrand to have an exchange.

Again, thank you so much Bertrand for this lovely call for this time that we shared. And I hope you'll have a lovely day after this.

Betrand Cochet: You too, Daniel. And thank you so much for everything.

Steph is the founder of Design Sprint Ltd, one of the first agencies focused on Design Sprints and the creator of the Design Sprint Quarter.

Discover her work

• Linkedin Profile

• Design Sprint Ltd

• The Design Sprint Quarter

With Steph, we discuss the chapter "How To Handle Money Like A Friend Would?"
This conversation led us to explore topics like: 

• How to create inclusive pricing?

• How to speak about money and go beyond money when interacting with job candidates?

• How revealing to job candidates their real worth leads to better experiences?

As Steph is a Design Sprint nerd, we've also geeked out about this method by exploring ideas like

• How can you reframe the Design Sprint as a liftoff engine for companies?

• How can we go beyond the one-week Design Sprint and explore the Design Sprint Quarter?

• Million Dollar Consulting: The Professional’s Guide To Growing A Practice

• Naval Ravikant Twitter Profile

• The Almanac of Naval Ravikant: A Guide To Wealth And Happiness

• Thibaut Louis Linkedin Profile

Made with AI
This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

I've sent my next book in advance to Service Design nerds from all around the world to see What resonates What can be improved and How to go further after you read that book.

In this second stop of this international book tour,   we go to my home country Switzerland to discuss the chapter: How To Handle Money Like A Friend Would? with  Steph Cruchon.

Steph is the founder of Design Sprint Ltd, one of the first agencies focused on Design Sprints and the creator of the Design Sprint Quarter.

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

How to create inclusive pricing?

How to speak about money and go beyond money when interacting with job candidates?

How revealing to job candidates their real worth leads to better experiences?

As Steph is a Design Sprint nerd, we've also geeked out about this method by exploring ideas like

How can you reframe the Design Sprint as a liftoff engine for companies?

How can we go beyond the one week Design Sprint and explore the Design Sprint Quarter?

 Thanks so much to Steph for this lovely book critic and insightful conversation.

Daniele Catalanotto: Hey, Steph, so lovely to have you here

Steph Cruchon: today. Hey Daniele, so thank you so much for having me. Really cool.

Daniele Catalanotto: It's so cool to have you to discuss. This book, Service Design Principles 301-400, and I've selected you for a few reasons that I have to share.

One thing that I really like about your work and your approach is, for me, you are this Design sprint nerd, who does it in a way that is not the dogmatic way, not like everything else is shit but in, in a way that, Hey, this is what we do.

This is how we do it. This is why we do it. And in a non preachy way. Today we're discussing a topic which is about money and how we can handle money in experiences in a way that is more like a friend world than someone who wants to piss you off.

And I think you have a few things to bring in because you've been an employee, you are now an entrepreneur, you have employees, you've seen many companies, and you've also worked in the finance sector with your design space. So I think you're bringing a good mix of stuff.

Steph Cruchon: Okay, that's cool. I guess it's also because I'm Swiss, right?

So if you think money, you think someone's Swiss. No, I don't know. I don't think I'm really an expert about money in general. But yeah, I'm happy to talk about it because I think it's an important topic. And when you look on LinkedIn, all these people who have a lot of.

I'm not this kind of guy. But I'm really happy that yeah, I get to review your book and to get the first chapters just before everyone else. So yeah, thank you.

Meet Steph Cruchon

Daniele Catalanotto: So let me start with this. When you are in a party, birthday party, wedding, the social stuff where we have to be.

Yeah. And you met someone new. How do you present yourself?

Steph Cruchon: Usually I'm with my wife, and she's the one who starts them. She chats with someone new. So it's always oh, so by the way, I'm the husband of , so that's pretty much the way it starts. And I love to, chit chat about. Basic things like kids, life in general, before getting too professional too fast, but at some point I know, I don't know how it is in other countries, but in Switzerland, quite fast You need to tell who you are and what you do in life And I think it's bad that people they judge someone about, his career and what he or she's doing in life So So, yeah, I ended up saying, okay, I'm a specialist of design sprint, I'm a designer.

People are like, okay, so you do logo and stuff, so I need to explain, and I guess it's fine. What do you want to hear? Basically what I say is, because if I say design sprint, no one gets what it is, it's too, it's like service design and stuff, it's too so what I say is that I help companies innovate in basically five days, so it's a super short workshop, it's five days, and yeah, it's basically a workshop.

Crash course of innovation. We come to the company, for five days. We start from getting the best ideas of everyone, aligning people. Then we decide on what we want to prototype. We create a prototype and we test. So it's what you could do in UX design for a month and we do it in five days.

So yeah, we help people innovate. And that's, I've been doing that for the last eight years full time, yeah.

Daniele Catalanotto: And as your secret friend in the, in that party, I would then come and say, Hey Steph will never tell you that, but he worked with all the companies, EPFL, Adobe, Nestle and obviously all the big stuff that we all know.

You would obviously say nothing because you're a Swiss guy and very polite, but I will then push him and say,

Steph Cruchon: you should check his work. But this is the thing for example, like my parents, they still don't know what I do for real, they for them design sprint, it looks way too complicated.

They're like, ah, so you work with computers, right? And I'm like, yeah. But yeah, sometimes you have to just name drop the clients and I think the best way to sell the design sprint is to say this methodology was invented at Google Venture. So people hear, Oh, Google. Okay. That guy is very smart. I'm like, no, I don't work at Google.

It wasn't been invented at Google. But then, yeah we spent in the last eight years full weeks. Of work for, yeah, companies like Adobe WHO, as you said, EPFL big pharma company like Roche Nestle, all these big companies, but also, and I think it's very important, startups that were once small, now some of them are very big, like Climeworks in Switzerland and yeah, and I've seen firsthand, spending Weeks of work with these teams it's always an adventure, right?

Because it's always a new problematic, a new challenge, and you get to spend the time with the teams. So yeah, very cool. I think in eight years, it's been more than 80 different companies more than 150 sprints. If you look at the stats, yeah, quite a ride. Yeah, you've been busy. You've been busy.

Yeah.

Daniele Catalanotto: Yeah. What's the difference between what you guys do and any other design sprint guy? Because basically it's a recipe, so you can, anybody can use it.

Steph Cruchon: No, you're right, actually, there is a great book, wait, it's here, it's behind me, so you can look for the book on Instagram, so basically, my friend Jake Knapp, he's the guy who invented it, he used to work at Google Venture back then, and he came up with that crazy cool recipe, Five days workshop, best crash course of a few weeks, design thinking, you pack all of this together, you make a very good week, a very efficient week, and he wrote the whole recipe in the book.

Luckily, I was probably the first person in Europe to discover it very early, it was 2015, something like this, so he was currently writing the book and basically I discovered it super early and, by luck, and I got the domain name designsprint. com, I was the first one to offer the service.

Yeah, and I created a connection with Jake and all of this. So it gave us an advantage, of course, but then I think we stayed true to the recipe. It became very famous, right? The design sprint, a lot of UX agencies or companies do run design sprints now, or they say they run design sprint. But when you look, they would, because the clients would be, Oh, we don't have five days, let's do it in one or two days or whatever.

So they just run. The workshop, any type of workshop, and they call it Design Sprint to make it, easier to sell or cooler or whatever. And on our side, we were like, no, let's be very Swiss, we have a very good recipe. It's five days, we're going to do it really well. We won't compromise.

We will do the prototyping, run the tests. And yeah, it's what made our difference at the end of the day is to be very close to the book. So we give the redesign sprint experience for any. Type of company, I think it's very reassuring for them because they know what they are buying and we guide them along this path.

So yeah, they have to commit five days, very important, but at the same time, that's how we can achieve results. And I think it's what makes the difference versus a lot of companies or consultants who do offer a one, two days workshop, it's a bit different.

The Design Sprint Quarter

Daniele Catalanotto: And I think one other thing that makes a difference, at least from what I've seen and noticed in your work is one thing that I've found very interesting is this design sprint quarter thing, which to me, at least that's the effect that it had on me, which was.

Oh, it's not just this, sometimes, American premise, where it's one week and we solve world hunger and it's Oh, say, Hey, yeah, one week we get started, we get to a very good point, but then you have to think a bit larger about it. And maybe, can you just give a bit of a sense of,

Steph Cruchon: Of what you did there?

Sure. So basically you can write design sprint quarter in Google. You will find, a very long article that I wrote back then and a very nice timeline basically of how basically an innovation quarter should look like when it integrates the design sprint at the beginning, because we didn't want just to run sprint with the clients and then to leave, right?

We wanted to give them a very good tool. It's okay, now that we have run the design sprint, it's on you. You have to push the project forward to make sure that you get budget, that you get, stakeholders alignment, that people are excited about the projects. Otherwise... It's innovation, right?

It's going to die out very fast and you need to push that forward. So yeah, we gave that very clear timeline of, okay, here you are here and that's where you have to go until you get an MVP, basically. So we made a bridge between classic agile scrum and all of this, like how you build the product with the very beginning, which is the design sprint.

Like when you get the first. Validated prototype and we try to create that timeline and I think it's, it works well. I think to this day I still have people, don, it was we released it in 2018, I think. And to this day I still have ev every day some people downloading the timeline and stuff.

And I seen that, in some companies like on the wall, which is very cool because they're like, okay, that's our small contribution to the design space. Yeah. Yeah, and

Daniele Catalanotto: that's definitely something that I think is really helping the community, in reframing this especially when things get very well known, like DesignSprint is quite famous, then there is A distortion happening sometimes, I think what you did with this design quarter for me, it really helped me also to sell or explain internally.

Okay guys, design sprint. Yeah. Get excited about it. But just here is one of the nerdiest guys I know doing design. And here is what he says about it so that it takes longer, and that's, yes, the events, the moment where most of the. Energy goals is, of course, this week. There is stuff before, there is stuff after, and we have to realize that we should not get into the distortion field of this of it being too famous, and I think that's that for me was again, very Swiss and reassuring, this kind of yeah, there is hard work behind it, and it's not like a secret thing where you can come in and you go out and everything is solved.

And I think that's something that I really appreciated about about your approach.

Design Sprints as liftoff engines

Steph Cruchon: I wrote a couple of years ago an article, I think design spins a bit like the role of SpaceX if you think about the NASA mission, right? NASA, they want to land something on Mars. It's the very big mission.

It's like innovation. And SpaceX, they are just hired to do the lift off. It's that initial, push so that you are in space and you can accomplish the mission. And I see our role like this. We are a small rig, a very important one because without us, sometimes there is no liftoff. So the project doesn't go anywhere and it's not even starting, but then, yeah, you need to be able to, to land.

So yeah, that's the way I

Daniele Catalanotto: see it. Wonderful. Let me switch a little bit gears, I think people have a good understanding about you and we'll come back to that at the end for people to know where they can discover more about these different tools and your work. Let's come back to the book and one question I have.

The good stuff: the format

Daniele Catalanotto: So you read the book, you have read the chapter that I sent you in advance and my first question Was there something in there that resonated with you?

Steph Cruchon: Yeah, a lot. So first, I felt really honored to to get to read it before everyone else. I think it's super cool. And so thank you for that. And I liked also the way that you don't try to look smarter than, like impressing with a lot of pages and lots.

You could have any of these chapters who have been. Three times longer, especially if you use ChatGPT, you can generate a lot of text. And you didn't do that. You made it very easy to read, to process. It's like one, two pages chapter. It's really to the point with one good example. And I really like this.

I like this. It's pragmatic. It's easy to read. It's so yeah. Good job about that. Really cool. And this topic. Talking about money and the role of money in all of this, I think it's interesting, it's important, because from my perspective, so I've been an employee so basically it's 20 years I'm in design and I've been the first 10 years of my career, I was an employee in big agencies, so I've seen this part, and now I have my own, so I've been also a freelancer, so like really like hustling, right?

Like studying and and being on my own. And now I have a small sized agency. We are still very small and I think it's important about what I'm gonna say later. But so I could appreciate So it's, the content from an employee's perspective, from a freelancer, and now from a company owner who is also a consultant, so I go to a lot of big companies so I can also see how they organize inside and how they do things.

So I think, yeah, it gives me a quite unique perspective on this. And what's very funny is that I would have read this as an employee. What I'm going to say like now would have been totally different, right? So it's interesting to see where you are.

Daniele Catalanotto: And so for you, so I see that your, we've changed with time, we've, you've been an employee, now you're an entrepreneur with a small staff. And what's one of the things that you read there, maybe that you thought, Oh, yeah. A few years ago, I wouldn't have said, yes, this is smart, but now I realize this is quite okay.

This makes kind of sense with the new lens that I have in front of my eyes because of my new experiences.

The good stuff: Pricing per country

Steph Cruchon: I'm going to start with this chapter, the price per country because I think it's a really beautiful idea. I really like that idea. I don't know how this can work because I feel that we don't have the right tools, especially in e commerce to make this work well.

And I think it's a pity. I think the concept is very good, but it's how do you implement it? It's quite ring a bell in me because I've been back to the days like how it's called a boy scout, doing the scouts like for long, for years. And the scouts, I don't know if they have that worldwide camp called the Jamboree.

I've been there too. Oh, super cool. I was too. Okay. So there is that Jamboree and it's like that camp that gathers the whole world, right? At, in one place. And it involves like traveling from the other side of the world sometimes. And you have I know it's two weeks. So this year it was in South Korea.

Yeah, they had all the all the drama and whatever but so they were in South Korea and the whole world had to come to South Korea and it makes it super expensive, right? I think when I used to be a scout, it was about 4, 000 for two weeks the package. And now I saw the numbers like 7, 000, which is absolutely a crazy amount of money.

But what they do, which is very smart, it's 7, 000 for Swiss people. And actually, if you come from Botswana you will pay maybe 500 or 1, 000. And I love that idea, meaning that they tax the rich to give to the poor countries and to give everyone the same opportunity to attend the camp. So I think it works at scale in this camp.

And that's probably something that could work better online on the internet, if eShoppings with I'm thinking like... Shopify should have a system this way, right? You could set different prices per country and make it both transparent, but at the same time not too obvious, so people are not...

Or they are not using V p N to pay cheaper. It's also the thing with the jamboree, what's so cool is that you know that as a Swiss citizen, you will pay more, but you understand also why, and you are proud of it because it's thanks to you. Some people from the other side of the world can come. Yeah.

Did you have that, that in mind when you wrote like the jamboree or it just you

Daniele Catalanotto: read? No, in fact, it's quite interesting because I didn't know that in the Jambo they did it, but it came more from. Very personal experiences where you know, I, as I'm selling books and they are quite pricey and what usually happens is just people buy them and say, Oh, thanks so much.

But I suddenly had people especially from Iran telling me, Hey, I would love to read the book, dollars and Iran doesn't work well. How do we do it? Because I'd love to buy it. And then it changed for me this perception because I didn't even think about it. I just thought it's a price.

I have to set a price. The price that I personally set is not one that is made to make lots of money because books don't make money, but it was more like a price so that people would read it because if it's high enough. You then say, Oh, I paid a lot. I'm going to read it because 60 bucks for an ebook, that's super expensive.

So I'm sure I'm going to read it. So for me, it was more that, that aspect, but then realizing that this wouldn't work because just because of of income and and other political situations. And then I was like, okay, cool. Just let me know what's an amount that you feel is. Reasonable for you, where you say, Hey, this is, I recognize that this is valuable, but at the same time, doesn't put you in a financial problem.

And then people just tell me, Hey, this is the price I could pay. Cool. Here's your special link for you and and your situation. Again, as you said, I was limited by the fact that the e commerce tool that I'm using doesn't allow that. And so I had to manually. Have the conversation, which at the scale I am is quite okay.

Yeah. But seeing that the Jambo does that at scale is something that is quite quite inspiring. Yeah.

Steph Cruchon: The I, I've encountered exactly the same thing, like we, at Design Sprint, we have sometimes the masterclass, so I. I run masterclasses. It's like usually two two days things like really like super intense.

It's it's not pre recorded videos, right? It's something live. It's a live experience with me and no, it's like real big workshop days and we give a lot of assets and all of this. So basically if you follow this course at the end, you can. I can make you sprint facilitators in today, but if you have what it takes to be that person, then you have all what you need to run your first design sprints, the assets and stuff and slide and things like this.

And we've put the pricing quite high. It's like 1000 bucks. For the course, which I think is fair because it's what makes, it's what makes us live, right? We can't make it cheaper because the time I will spend also in preparation and stuff, I need to also get something out of this and to commit the time.

So that's very important. And at the same time, if it's too cheap people, as you said, they don't give enough value to it. So you need to find the right price points. I think overall we have it, but sometimes I got the same some people like writing, Oh, it's too expensive for me. Could you give me a discount?

And if it's done badly, we don't like to do it. And especially if it's, Oh, I'm a consultant at Deloitte and, and Deloitte pays. And of course I won't give you a discount, but if you come and you are a freelancer and you come from this country and you can explain me something. So this is really my advice to you guys who are watching.

Don't. Be afraid to ask, right? Because I'm super happy to, the worst feeling, I don't know for you, but for me, is that no one subscribes to my course, so no one cares. And I'm so happy when someone writes, okay, I don't have the kind of money you're asking, but I would love to participate. Could you do something?

And usually we say yes, and we find a way to make it work. And I've had some participants coming from the other side of the world. With the different time zones so they were attending. So for them, they had to wake up at like 3am in the morning to attend my course. And okay, maybe I lost 20 or 30 percent of the price on them, but at the same time, what I gained, it's amazing because these people be committed.

So yeah, really don't hesitate to ask. I think it's important. And

Daniele Catalanotto: I think that asks a question which I'd like to explore with you, which is obviously there is the technological side, how can we use systems that allow that at scale, the Jamboree where we have the case study.

People can just do a lightning demo, watch how it's done peeking a bit behind the curtain and seeing how it's done. And I think more and more tools slowly allow that because it's something that is becoming slowly more natural. But then on the other side, I think for smaller businesses, where you don't absolutely need it to be automated, I'm asking myself, how can we frame it, so that it is not like this paternalistic thing where you don't have the money, your life is hard, I'm the savior, I'm going to save you, which again is not the goal, because the goal for me was never.

That someone feels like they're getting a discount, but more that they get the price that is right to their context. Exactly. Which is

Steph Cruchon: completely different. Yeah. And it should look like the default price. So someone coming from I don't know India would get a price that is cheaper from someone from Switzerland without even seeing it.

And I really liked that idea, especially when you sell, masterclasses courses online or events or these kind of things, we have to make it more equal. I think it's super important. Yeah. And it has to go through, through technological solution. It exists already, like for v a t you can manage different v a t in this e-commerce.

So we should be able to manage different prices. Totally agree. Yeah. So I really like this part. The web parts. There was a part I loved, but I'm going to keep it for the end. And there is a chapter, two chapters actually, I felt a bit less comfortable with them. You want to hear which ones?

The bad stuff: revealing salaries

Steph Cruchon: Absolutely, because that was

Daniele Catalanotto: my next question. What are stuff that, where you say, ah, this, I wouldn't frame it like that. I wouldn't, this is my recommendation to improve it.

Steph Cruchon: Okay. I don't have recommendations to improve them because I'm not an author and you are. But it's the one that tell me the salary before I apply to this job.

And followed by tell me how you calculate salaries here. Because it's pretty linked, right? Yeah. I think, I'm gonna be a bit confrontational here, but I think you are you are, you wrote this from an employee's perspective. And I totally understand a hundred percent that if you're an employee, you want to know how much you're going to get, and it has to be fully transparent.

And I totally get it. It makes sense. As an employee, I would love the same thing myself, but now I've seen also. No, the, like the the other side, yeah, the other side, thank you. The backstage of this, and now that I'm a company owner and also I need to deal with HR and stuff like that, and I've been, I've run a lot of design sprint about HR situations, working with HR teams, seeing in big companies.

I see also the difficulties of this, so start with the, tell me how you calculate salaries here. So what you suggest in this chapter is yeah, this would be a very transparent grid, or basically classes or whatever, like this is how much you are paid. I've seen that working in very big companies like I have, for example, transportation companies or public state companies, they have that, they have classes, they have grids.

And it's very clear if you have been seven years in the company and you have done this and that and blah, blah, blah, and you have done this course, then you get paid this. Okay and I've seen, so in a way, it's very clear when you enter and it's easy to give someone salary, but I've seen it like being internally in these teams there are two main problems with this.

The first one is people feel trapped in the grid. Regardless of how well you perform as an individual or how, engage you on stuff, you are still trapped by your grid and sometimes it's very hard to evolve in the next, in the next row of the grid it creates some kind of hierarchy very clear hierarchy, meaning that you see you N plus two the boss of your boss and, like how much he makes or she makes, and I think it's, it works in very rigid hierarchical company.

When you have clearly the boss, the sub boss, and then you have a workers, managers, and yeah, it frames people in these kind of pyramids, but when you think about our industry, that is the tech industry, that is why a UX designer should get more than a UI or more than a front end developer.

You see what I mean? Like it's, maybe you can come with a rationale on this, but I guess making the grid is way harder. And you can be a terrible UX designer, or you can be a horrible front end guy, or you can be amazing, even if you're a junior. You see what I mean? So in this kind of context, I will have a hard time, at least for my own company, to make a grid of salary.

What do you think of this?

Daniele Catalanotto: It's quite interesting. For me it brings a few elements. I think the one that, that came to mind for me is this notion of maturity, and scale, where obviously if the company is at the stage where, they've been in business for 20, 30 years. You arrive at the stage where you've tested a few things also in terms of HR and salaries, where you know, okay, this kind of works, this is fair.

And now, based on our experience, we can formulate a system. If it's all, everyone is paid the same, if it's a grid system, if it's based on location, that, that doesn't really matter. But using the experience, you can basically set a format and it makes sense, especially if you're quite a big organization.

And I think that's like a a subtext that we need to add here, which is at that scale at that level of maturity, this is something that that we can expect because it shows also this kind of level of, hey, You've tried a few things. Now it's maybe a good moment to learn from all these experiences and go with with a pricing or with a salary structure, which doesn't mean it can't change, as software, I think it's cool, can be very nice to say, Hey, this is the price is a salary structure we have for one year or two years.

And we're working with that. That's how we're going to work for that time. And that's how the. The rules of the game are for the moment that's definitely one, one element that's, that came to mind to me. And then the other thing for me is the question at the motivation behind that is for me, quite simple is like how much as an employee, again, I frame it as an employee or future employee, someone interested job candidate, let's say like that as a job candidate looking into your company, what's What can I expect?

. And it doesn't go only for money, it goes also for culture. Yeah. What's the size? Usually we do all these calculations in our head where we say, yeah, I know that maybe working with Steph, the money will be shit. But he's so lovely's

Steph Cruchon: not, it's not, by the way, it's not . Yeah. But,

Daniele Catalanotto: so let me say, if you're working with Daniella, the money will be shit.

It would be fair, but shit compared to working for a bank but the guy is quite nice. He has a lot of flexibility and therefore you're making your calculation and say, oh, okay. It sounds interesting. And to me it's this question, how can we make this? How do people do this bit of calculation so that they know, oh, it's worth my time and worth their time that I send a proposition that I send my CV.

And that's the question that I would like to ask you is, how do you frame that? How do you help job candidates to know if it's valuable for them and for you that they start an application.

Steph Cruchon: So yeah, it touches on the other chapter. So I have so many things to answer to that. But first I think even if you have a grid and I think it's good to have some kind of grid I think you need that grid, but it shouldn't be too apparent or too visible right away because you need some visibility.

I'm gonna give you a little anecdote. It's a very old one, so I think I can tell it. I used to be an employee in a big communication agency in Geneva. And one of the employee, like one one good friend, basically, who was a really good employee. I guess he was there since... Six years in the company.

So really someone important in the team. And one day he came to the bus and he said, I need a raise like that. And and the boss was like, okay, why? I need to be paid. I don't know. The amount wasn't, it was like a hundred, 150 more a month. I need to be paid that more. And the boss was like, okay, why do you come like that?

And today and stuff, he said, ah, because I'm going to be a dad. I'm going to have a baby soon. The boss was like, he reacted badly in the way they said, okay, first you can't ask me this way. Second you don't get paid more because you get a baby. So he answered from the boss perspective in a kind of probably rough way.

And the employee took it super badly. Because his request got rejected right away and because for him it was so important that he's going to become a dad. And also he made the calculation, he saw I won't be able to equilibrate my budget and blah, blah, blah. So he came with something that made sense to him.

And I think the lack of flexibility of the greed of the company that there was no reason that you got paid more because you're going to be a dad. And at the same time, for the employee it was so important. It created, like some kind of like a conflict from that day. With the top management and then from that day, everything that the managers were telling was bad, he really went to that mood that anyway, they are the worst and stuff.

And couple of months after, I don't remember if he got fired or if he left, but anyway, the same result, like they had to break up and he left to no one's benefit. And I think, they lacked some flexibility there. He had a point in a way. They had a point too, because you can't just.

people more because they have kids. So I, yeah I think... Solid salary grids, sometimes they can create stupid problems like this. So yeah, that's one example I have. At Design Sprint, LTDE, my company, we are not as mature as you said about, establishing grids and stuff. Many people too, but the approach I took is basically we are more or less paid the same.

So we have the same salary, meaning I need to hire people who are at least as good as me or better. That's the way that's the way I go. So meaning I don't make a crazy salary. I made, I make a good salary, but I don't make a CEO style crazy salary. Me, I make, the salary of my top employees basically.

And and so far it worked well for us this way. I don't know how sustainable this It can scale, but at least for a small size agency, it works. And I don't feel robbed personally. To, to your point before it's basically the chapter before it's show me the salary before I come to your company.

So I would like to know basically why you came up with this. Maybe you have something to share about that, right? Maybe I can answer this. It's basically,

Daniele Catalanotto: it comes from a feedback, so we, so let me come back a few years before. A few years ago we started a website called servicesdesignjobs.

com with a guy you might know, Mark Fontaine the host of the Service Design Show. And we've run that together for a few months. And one of the feedbacks we got a lot was. Can you please add the information of salary? That will be so helpful, because what we understood was that there are people who are in situations where there is a minimum that they need for family or other reasons, having a mortgage or something else where they're struggling.

If it's below that, it's not even a discussion. It's just, even they would love to go there. They could just say, I have the mortgage. I have to pay for it. I have my three kids. They go to school and this kind of stuff, and I can't remove them from school. And the mortgage, I've signed it for a few years.

So I still want that. And I still have to go with them. And I find it quite interesting to say, Hey, yeah it's It's something that a specific group of people would very appreciate, and on the other side, a lot of people then who don't need exactly that same amount of security, let's say, are quite appreciative of the transparency.

So it's like a, it serves a specific group quite well. And the other part is that many people like the transparency, but here it's not so much about knowing, hey, this job is exactly, I don't know, 5, 000 per month, blah, blah, blah, and this, but more hey, For this kind of role, it starts around this and then say, yeah, obviously there will be criterias, your experience matters.

There is, there needs to be flexibility. And I really liked your point about flexibility. I think the notion of grid, I think the word also, it gives, especially for us Swiss people, we are designers with grids and we know how it can be a very frustrating. I think.

Already the word grid is showing how it can be jaily in a way and how it can, people can feel trapped in it. I think there, there is a notion that is quite interesting, which is this notion of letting people know, where could it start? So that you just say, Hey that sounds fair obviously could be more, could be a little bit less based on, on, on various criteria, but it gives me a sense that.

With that I conclude, or not, which is quite interesting

Steph Cruchon: to me. Yeah, sure. I totally get it. From the employee perspective, you need to know if you want to commit the time to even apply to the interview and all of this and I get the feeling, it's one thing you... Create your whole portfolio and you rewrite your CV and stuff and then you come and, oh, so what's gonna be salary like?

And it's like half of what you were thinking, this is last time for everyone. So definitely it should be a rough indication. Exactly like a range and stuff. This, I totally agree with that, but it's also very important. Okay. I'm taking. Again I'm sharing the perspective of a small company owner.

Indeed. The very big corporates are so good at bugging the system. If it becomes a law that the salary needs to be written, they will optimize everything so that the salary will look huge. And cutting all the other benefits that they could give. And, for example, if you work at Design Sprint Ltd, I believe, we have very good salaries versus what you look around and stuff.

Because what we do is very hard, it's very exposed, it's very, it's a very senior role. So we do have good salaries. I believe someone With the same experience and who work at us could make more if you will be or she will be working at in one of the Big four like Deloitte, EY or whatever or Microsoft.

Of course, they will make more money But what we bring what we have is that A lot of advantages, right? We have the work from home thing. We have the, we totally trust you. We don't look at your schedule, your timesheets, your whatever. You are totally free to do your thing. You are free to bring some ideas.

And we've been, modifying the course of the company according to what people wanted to work on and to do. So all these benefits probably they don't, they are not shown in a cell, in just a number of the salary, but they are here. And it makes. It makes interesting to work at us and my fear is that if it becomes a law, a rule that you need to write, you're going to make a hundred and then the big companies, they will always win.

Everyone's going to want to work for Microsoft or

Netflix or whoever. And then all that ecosystem of smaller scale companies who do bring a better life, better work life balance more ownership, more, they will be just. It's not interesting anymore because you just go for the big number and that's it. So it's my fear with this, but I totally understand that, yeah, it needs to be arranged.

Like really, you don't want to, you don't want to lose anyone's time. Especially on the first, like I'm super transparent on the salary. During the first interview but yeah, I would prefer to keep it a bit blurry before because I think it's a discussion that you have, that you need to have with the person also according to personal, personal situation of the person, I think that's important to hear also not to be totally stuck on one specific salary and then I don't know what you think, but I'm always very uncomfortable to You set a salary, like when you hire someone, and you're like, okay, that person needs to be worth this, so I can pay him or her this, and it's quite a gamble, right?

And I think the real salary can really be calculated a couple of months after, because you know exactly what the person is worth. And maybe you still want to work with the person, but maybe the person is not worth this, or maybe you should pay that person more because she's worth this. And that's the...

Yeah, I think we give way too much of importance to that first negotiation of the salary and that first, discovery of the salary. And we should give more importance for what comes after a couple of months after or the year after, because things should be re evaluated after maybe the first year.

What do you think of this? I

Daniele Catalanotto: have to say, I love the conversation because for me, the conversation is exactly what I'd love people to have as an interaction with the, any book which is the book is just any book is just giving you a starting point for reflection and never, at least in my world, never should it be a rule that is true in every case.

But instead, being a provocation, a positive provocation that you say why are we not following that idea? Or why are we following this idea? Is it still something that we want to do? And then this brings you to thinking about stuff which goes further than the initial idea, and any book is just there to help you to start a reflection, and where you end the reflection is obviously much more qualitative and useful than just.

The one the one information and there for me, what it brings is that's what I appreciate about our conversation is, this fact that we say, Hey, money is one aspect. Yeah, exactly. There are many aspects. So there are for me, two things that I really appreciate. One is money is one aspect and the other one is thinking about time.

And so if we go for the first one, which is money is one aspect, we could reframe it by saying, let me know what I will. And then it gets obviously for each company very different, and then we don't have this fear of the big corporate world eating the jobs for the small ones because big corporations can't compete on very specific stuff from small companies if they show it well, because a small company that shows, Hey, we are three, four or five people.

Your colleagues, your managers, the guy doing HR is the guy next to you. So when you have a problem, you don't have to wait three weeks to hear, yes, we received your email. We will see with your. One plus if it's if it's okay, and we will come back in three months, this kind of stuff, this is valuable.

This is stuff that people should know, I think, in advance. And there, obviously, money is one aspect. There are other benefits. There is also culture. And knowing all these elements together is something that is, I think, definitely quite inspiring for people to know, oh, this is worth my time. Not only because I made the calculation in my head and I think it works, but also because there is this relationship where, Oh, they invested time in telling me this could be worth your time.

So I'm invested now because, you did. A step in my direction. Now I'm invested in

Steph Cruchon: going in your direction. This discussion, this negotiation in a way is very healthy because it's okay, maybe the discussion is going to be, okay, I need more money because I need to pay my mortgage. Okay. How can we finance more money for you?

Maybe you can take this this role or this task more maybe you can work more days. Maybe you can these kinds of things. Yeah, maybe you will reduce on your benefits in order to get more money. And we, at least we have that flexibility and that's why it's important not to. Frame too much and have someone who really has, a very too clear vision when he comes or she comes, because then it's not a discussion anymore.

It's not reflecting exactly what people need, but yeah.

Stehp's favorite part: Tell people their true worth

Steph Cruchon: And maybe I can share the parts of this chapter that I love the most. It's linked to this, right? But it's so wait, it's at the end. It's at the end of the chapter. Basically, it's the page when it's yeah, tell people if they are worth more than what they think and I really love this.

It really resonated because it occurred to me, actually. Yeah. When I was a junior, I think it was my first real job in an agency and all of this, I've been like typical graphic designer student and, I was doing a bit of web mastering, but I was restarting my career Yeah, And you have that gap between you are not a student anymore, you're not at school anymore, and you need to get your first job.

And for me it was the most miserable time of my life. I was on the dole for three months and I felt horrible at that time because you are full of energy and, willing to build great things and you have all that knowledge from the school and all that energy and you come and no one wants you, no one cares because you are a junior.

And I felt really bad and going to the dole, your first experience with the work of. Professional work is to go to the door to, and I felt really bad about that. And so yeah, I went to my first one of my first job interview, like CS1. And I was expecting to get back to the day, something like 3, 005.

Swiss francs, like US dollars. And for, with this, I was really happy, right? Because I was switching from being a student to getting this. For me, it was the world. And I came there during the interview and stuff. And during the first interview. He asked me, what are your salary pretensions?

I don't know how to say that in English, but what do you expect? Yeah, what do you expect as a salary? And I told my number and I was like, ah, he's never going to work. And he stopped a bit. He was a bit like, ah, actually, if you fit for that role, you deserve more, like you deserve more.

And I was like, so surprised because he didn't, as you said, he didn't try to use the situation. He didn't try to to use the fact that I was young and naive and they didn't know my worth to basically trick me and to take advantage on me. And he basically gave me something that wasn't absolutely crazy, but that was more, that was better.

And that was really fair. And I think that extra mile. He went off telling me straight, so I accepted the job, of course, because I had a very good positive opinion about the company. It's hey, he could have screwed me, he didn't do it, he gave me... a very good first salary and basically, I became very very loyal to the company.

I stayed six years I think in the company, it was my first job as a junior. And it's amazing if you can keep your junior six years in the company by just being a fair person and being fair I think That's absolutely amazing. So yeah, this resonated a lot. And I think that's a very good HR advice, actually, because you, yeah, maybe you can make some more money by taking advantage.

It's going to work for a couple of months and stuff until anyway, the person is going to realize that he or she's not being being paid enough and and then it's going to feel betrayed and it's going to leave the company. So it's not a good calculation. And I love how you're able to, yeah, to play the long game and to understand, okay if I treat people badly, if I'm not fair with them, if I don't tell them what they are worth, you're going to end up leaving me, right?

We love this.

Daniele Catalanotto: Love your story because... Even if it wouldn't have worked out, imagine at that job, they're saying, Hey, you're worth more. But in the end they say, there was another guy who was just better than you. The memory you would have of that company would be these guys treated me well, even if they didn't need me.

And then maybe years after you would go back and say, Oh, now I'm at the right level. Now I can come back. Or, you will say to friends and colleagues. Hey, you should go there because these are nice people. They helped me suck less at job interviews because they told me what's my worth.

And so it works in both cases. Yeah. Either it creates loyalty when you're in, or it creates this kind of appreciation that, oh, I've been seen not as a as a number that people can play with, but as a human who can learn from experiences that he doesn't have yet. And you can share that. So it's a

Steph Cruchon: beautiful story.

I had this three month of DoLE and I had another job interview before this one. And that other job interview, if I think back now, it's even more amazing in the way that I went to the interview. So I was a young graphic designer. I could make websites, I could make a lot of things like video, early 3D and all these things.

And it was a company, they were making stickers for cars. You see the idea. And I went to that interview. I showed him my Crazy portfolio with back to the days, but with all the schoolwork and stuff and the interview ended this way. He said, You are great, but I'm not going to hire you.

And I was like, why? For me, it was like the world was collapsing. And he said, because you will feel bored. You will feel bored at my company. You won't stay. And I need someone who stays, who will be fulfilled with me. So he saw that I couldn't stay long enough and he told me that straight.

And I think that's also a great gift, right? It's not about money or whatever, but it's about telling the worth of the person. It's I was very young. I just wanted to work and I wanted to earn money and stuff. So I was way more than willing to work for him. But he was like, no, it's not for you, man.

You need to find something else, something more diversified, whatever, but you can really express what you, what. What you can do. So I think this is cool. Maybe I've got lucky with this first job interviews I realized. But which is cool, because

Daniele Catalanotto: then it shapes the way you then interact with people too, because when, it's this thing where people have interacted with you in a lovely way, you will then interact later with other people in a lovely way, which is always.

Ah always pretty great.

Recommended resources

Daniele Catalanotto: So my last question for you, so you shared a lot, thank you so much for that. My last question for you would be, is there, are there resources that you'd like to share with the community to go further on these ideas and maybe others?

Steph Cruchon: Yeah, I don't know if I'm a big money guy or money guru and stuff.

Book: Million Dollar Consulting by Alan Weiss

Steph Cruchon: So there's one book that I've read when I started my freelance business, it's called The Million Dollar Consultant, something like this. It sounds like, the title is really silly by the way it's a very old school way of thinking but I think that's a book that gave me a lot of confidence and how to handle. Like talking to big clients and not undercutting your price, not undercutting your worth.

Yeah. And knowing what you're worth and, it's basically, it's an exchange of service, right? You pay me money so I can do that for you. And I think this approach of knowing what you're worth, it was very core to the beginning of my business, especially on the design sprint, especially the fact that we didn't compromise.

Like they wanted me to undercut my price to basically run one day's workshop instead of five. I said, no I know what I'm doing. I'm the specialist of this. And I'm telling you that you need. to buy five days out of me. So that's how you're going to get a good a good result and good return on investment.

So it gives me the keys to negotiate, to know my worth, to use the right wording to, and not to compromise. And I think it was. It was a great foundation for the company, even as a freelancer. Now it's easier for me to do that because I have a track record and I can show what I have been doing in the last years, but it was way harder when I was studying.

And yeah, that, that book helped me. So million dollar consultants.

Follow Naval Ravikant

Steph Cruchon: If you are English speaker, you should follow Naval Ravikant. On Twitter, the guy is great.

He tweets about life, about work life balance, about money, about all these things. It's on Twitter.

Book: The Almanack of Naval Ravikant

Steph Cruchon: Someone took all his tweets and made a book about it. It's called the Almanac of Naval Ravikant really great. And I think he's probably one of the smartest, wisest tech guru and investment guru, and he has a lot to share about.

And if you speak French, there is Thibaut Louis, that you have probably seen because he screams on LinkedIn. And most of the time I would like to give him some slaps. Because he's so annoying and he's so young but at the same time he has that raw energy and he's really good at copywriting in general.

He manages to hook people about this topic and he manages to formulate so I can see myself, when I was studying years ago. And basically he figured out by himself a lot of things that I should have figured out by myself. And he's able to take these the situation and this comprehension and make it really short and snappy and easy to read.

So I think he's really someone great to follow.

Thibaut Louis. Thanks

Daniele Catalanotto: so much for sharing. I love how your examples are also examples of, you can appreciate the content and maybe not the style.

Steph Cruchon: Because you understand how it works, right? If you give the very big buzzword or the big, very big tagline, get rich fast, blah, blah, blah, is what people want. And that's how you get their attention. And most of the people, there is no substance after that, right?

It's like there is a clickbait title and that's it. You don't get Anything. And I think Thibault Louis or the other guy who wrote the book they managed to catch you with this easy simplistic clip bait title, but then there is some real content that is for real interesting. So yeah, this is the difference.

And even for me, it's a great crash course of marketing, right? It's interesting to see how they managed to catch your attention, but then to give you something in exchange that is actually valuable if you spend the time reading.

How to follow Steph's work

Daniele Catalanotto: Thank you so much for the conversation. many people will be eager to know more about you, your work, and discover a bit more.

What's the best way to either discover some of your work or get in touch with you? What would you recommend to

Steph Cruchon: people? If you're interested about design sprint, go to design dash sprint. com. That's my company's website. And we share a lot of tools, tips and tricks and case studies and stuff and photos there.

And I think it's a it's an interesting resource, right? If you are willing to run design sprints in your company, to see how we do it, and maybe you can hire us so we can run the sprint at your company. And otherwise I guess it's probably LinkedIn. I know it's not the trendiest social network.

Maybe I should be on TikTok, whatever, but LinkedIn is basically where Part of my life, like I'm there every day and I will share anything from like stuff we do with design sprint, we have also a side startup that I start to share a lot about because it's also an interesting small product and we, we have all these things going on and yeah, I try to give like a, my personal perspective on the thing.

So if you like what you have heard just follow me on LinkedIn, we'll be good friends.

Daniele Catalanotto: Awesome. So there is here an opportunity to have a new. Internet friend, I would highly recommend that you follow Steph's work especially the design quarter. Check his website. There's a lot of stuff in there and obviously the LinkedIn is it's also quite inspiring.

Closing words

Daniele Catalanotto: Thank you so much for the conversation, the time you spent reading the book analyzing it and making notes about it. I really appreciate it.

Steph Cruchon: Yeah. Likewise. Thank you so much for having me. Cheers. Thanks. Bye bye.

Juneza is the author of the book "Navigating Service Design" and a fellow Service Design practitioner.

Discover her work

• Linkedin Profile

• Juneza's book

• Juneza's talk at the DesignUp Conference

With Juneza, we discuss the chapter "How Can You Surprise The People You Serve?"
This conversation led us to explore topics like: 

• How to make experiences more human at scale? 

• How to react with grace when you can't help a customer? 

• How bad metrics can break customer experiences?

• The Power Of Moments: Why Certain Experiences Have Extraordinary Impact

• To Sell Is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others 

• Misbehaving: The Making of Behavioral Economics

Made with AI
This is an automated transcript made with Descript. Therefore, some parts of the text can get pretty creative.

I've sent my next book in advance to Service Design nerds from all around the world to see What resonates What can be improved and How to go further after you read that book.

In this first stop of this international book tour, we go to India to discuss the chapter: How can you surprise the people you serve? with Juneza Niyazi. Juneza is a Service Design practitioner who also wrote the book Navigating Service Design.

In this conversation, we explore topics like:

How to make experiences more human at scale?

How to react with grace when you can't help a customer?

How bad metrics can break customer experiences? Thanks so much to Juneza for this lovely book critic and insightful conversation.

Daniele: I'm super excited to have you here, Juneza.

Thank you so much.

I have invited you because you are a fellow author on service design, you've gone through the pain of writing a book, so you can relate to how much it sucks to do it.

Yes. And, and you are also someone who practices service design.

Juneza: Absolutely.

Meet Juneza

Daniele: When you are in a birthday party and you meet the cousin of a cousin: How do you present yourself usually?

Juneza: So I'm going to introduce myself. Not as a service designer to this person, I would say, Hey, I'm Juneza. I essentially work with experiences and currently I'm working at a space where we are trying to create a very transparent experience for smallholder farmers in Indonesia, where we're ensuring that they get the value for the service that they are doing for the world.

So that's where I work and that's what I do. And yep that's how I would introduce myself.

Daniele: And as your friend who is next to you in that birthday party, I will then jump in and say, Juneza, you have to talk to him about your book. Maybe just tell us about your book a little bit.

Juneza's book

Juneza: So I have my book right here. So this is my book, which I usually carry in my bag because I have a lot of people asking me what service design is. So I pull the book out and I read the first part of what is service design in my book.

So what I have tried to articulate in this book is essentially to help a lot of designers who are trying to transition into the industry that they want to work in, to give a glimpse of what it is to be a service designer in the industry.

I don't. Consider myself as a great educator.

I have this imposter syndrome where I don't think I'm ready to tell someone what a good service design is or how to design a service. So I would say that:

This is a collection of my experiences and of other co-service designers who've worked specifically in the Indian service sector.

So the book is specifically for the target audience who wants to be service designers in India. Because the challenges are different, the company structures are different, hierarchies are very different. So how you work within those Indian domain is what the book captures. So yep, that's essentially what my book is about.

Impostor Syndrom and sharing knowledge

Juneza: I love how

Daniele: we all struggle with imposter syndrome, even the smartest people just like you, because I read the book and it's full of very smart stuff and it's funny to to hear that you're also struggling with that thing. And I think we will struggle with that all

Juneza: our life.

I don't know when you can call yourself an educator because I personally feel that we're always learning. And maybe I can say that. I am more of a person who would like to share so that someone does not have to go through the same journey I did. If I've learned something, they can pick it up from there.

So I would call myself more as a person who would like to co learn with somebody else. So I'm just documenting what I've learned so somebody else can pick it up from there.

A book to discover the indian service culture

Daniele: That's awesome. And I have to say I've read the book and I'm not planning to go to work in India in the next days, but still I got a lot of it because I think it's interesting for people outside of India to, or to just have a bit of a view in another culture.

And I think it's quite interesting to see, ah, wow, okay, these are other challenges, other ways of thinking, and how the idea of service is also embedded in the culture in a different way. This was for me something which was like a travel, where you're traveling with a book.

Where you learn stuff about your profession, but at the same time, it's like a little bit of a travel. So I can highly recommend it also for people who are not yet wanting to go to work in India and are happy at home, but who like to travel a bit with a book that, that still gets them tips about their profession.

Juneza: True, absolutely. So in that context a bit that I've written in the book about experiences In India, we have this term called Atiti Devo Bhava. It means: Your guests are your God. So your customers is your God. It's something that's very ingrained in our culture.

And that is something that we're now trying to get into the businesses and the services that we're providing. So yeah, India has a lot of experience in taking care of your customer very ingrained in our culture. So that's essentially what the book is about.

Service Design Principles Book Review

Daniele: So lovely. Knowing all of that, you're the perfect person to chat a bit about the next book I'm writing which is called Service Design Principles 301 to 400.

And you've been able to read the chapter, How Can You Surprise the People You Serve?

Is there something that resonated with you that you thought, Oh, this is quite interesting?

The Good Stuff

Juneza: I did resonate with quite a few of the ideas in the book, especially there was this principle that mentioned prove with a human touch that this isn't automated. That was a very interesting chapter because you have given a really good example about how you send a personal mail to the people who purchase your product. So that was a very wonderful touch point that you focused upon.

But something that made me start thinking about it is I've worked in a domain where it's a very early startup, which maybe there's around 12 to 20 member team versus in bigger organizations, which is an MNC structure, where to scale an idea like this would be extremely difficult.

So that also made me think that, how do we get. People who maybe they're directly interacting with our customers or sending emails to our customers to actually care.

So there was another principle that I came across in another book, which said, your customers come second. So I was very curious, why would they say your customers come second, but then when I read your chapter, I realized.

Maybe they do, because if the company took care of their employees and the value system that the company built with their employees would then eventually translate to a customer, right? Because why do we have automated messages today? Because it's easier to control the conversation, the tone of voice, and we know that the response that our customer is getting when they're asked, when they have a query, or if they have a concern, it's a consistent emotion.

Versus if we leave it to another human, we don't know what that emotion would be. That person might have had a bad day, they might, that would reflect in that email. If that person had a great day, that'll reflect in that mail. So in order to avoid the gray areas is where mostly companies try to automate this.

This has actually triggered a thought in me as to how do we get more people to care for a customer that's speaking to them and how do we get them to essentially move from an automated system to a personal touch?

Yeah, that's something that this particular chapter made me think and question the scalability and how do we ideally get companies to scale this.

Daniele: Sometimes I think we have this kind of weird perception with automation. We feel that it's a robot speaking to us. Where at the start, it's a, it's someone who's a human who said, Oh, I'm going to write a message for me, just to many people, and so at the start, it's still a human experience that we are designing at scale, and therefore, I think even with something that's is automated, you still can prove that it was a human writing it, or that there is human intention behind it.

We need to stop being in the, is it human or automated, and seeing that there is a gray area in the middle where it can be something where you say, Hey.

It's a notification which is written like a friend would write you the notification and not like an automated system would say it like you made error 443 problem

instead: oh there seems to be an error here is how you could solve it and if You want to share that error with someone, here is a specific code that we use to know what it is, and this can be quite useful if you send it to us.

So it's understanding that it can be automated, but you could add a human touch that shows that the guy who wrote the automated message really cared.

Juneza: So it's mostly the tone of voice that you're suggesting that it has to be translated into a human conversation rather than a robot giving us a direction, right?

Daniele: As you say, the question of scale isn't the one that is touching me as much at the moment. Therefore it's not one that I was sensible to. But as you're working more on a bigger scale, I see that the principle then needs to be adapted. To be more: Prove that the message was created by someone who cares. And how can you show that care?

For example, one question I'm asking myself is in your case would it make sense that even if the message is automated, In the signature of the email, you have the photo of the guy, and you say, ah, okay, this is Juneza, she looks like that, okay, I still have an image of who that could be, and and having the hi and signature of Juneza, and if you respond, then it goes directly to the email of Juneza and not to the support at company. com.

This could be simple things that you still can do at a scale, but that still will show that you. Yes, we send it in an automated way, but if you answer and you need something, then we jump in.

Juneza: So I'll give you another use case. This is a very interesting lens through which I'm going to redraft your sentence.

So today when you see customer support systems for health insurance, I don't know how it is where you are. In India, at least I'm giving you context from an Indian perspective. We have customer support for health insurance, banks any service, right? When you have a person behind that call, and when you ask them, hey, I have this issue, or I have this query, even though it's a human behind that call, they talk like a machine.

They say, hey, what, this is your issue. I can solve it. I can't solve it. I will send you a mail. Okay, bye. And they click the call.

So how do you get, even when there is a human behind that entire channel, to get them to act as human and not as a machine, right?

So most of the times. I think we're looking into automation because we can't trust the human behind the channel.

So that's something that I've been thinking about. What is your take on that?

Daniele: I love the philosophical question:

How can we, through automation, remind people that they are human?

When they are in the machine, and, they receive 200 calls and they're just like, okay I'm just going to have to go through it.

Just give them the reminder. This is another guy. Who has kids, who has problems, who is in a hurry, and giving your name could be quite nice, and say, hello, how are you? It's something that could be helpful. Obviously, based on the cultures, it's a bit different. For example, in Switzerland, having someone at the phone asking you how you are and you don't know them is very strange.

But if you do that in the States, in the States they have this thing where it's hi, I'm Pam. How are you today? Yeah. Which for them is totally normal for us. It'll not be like, Hey, this is my personal life. Fuck off. Yeah. Which obviously culturally is a bit different, but it's interesting question.

How do we add space for people in the automation, to be a bit more human, like how can we add a break or add a pause where it's like, Hey, before you take the talk, the call, remember this guy had a bad day. Okay. Yeah. Do you have ideas on how to do that?

Juneza: So at least my experience has been that most companies provide scripts because their KPIs are to have X amount of calls per day and solve X amount of problems. So this was something that I read in another book, which said that if your KPIs are to close calls, then the person behind that particular channel is focused on hitting those KPIs versus if your KPIs are on customer satisfaction, maybe they would put in a little bit more effort to ensure that the customer is having a good time.

Because today I even hear customer support teams saying that, Hey, can you give me a five rating? That's how they end the call. They start with saying, Hey, and this is your issue. Great. I was able to solve it. I was not able to solve it. Oh, by the way, can you give me a five rating for this? It's a little scripted.

Now you know that there is a need for that human as well. So I had an experience where the particular person could not solve my problem. And then he said that, hey, if you don't give me this five rating, I won't be making the cut for this month. And I would, they would cut my pay. And this is going to be an issue for me.

So then I had to empathize with the employee and say, hey, it's okay. You did not solve my problem, but. If this helps you, but yeah that's how it is.

So there are certain company structures which lead even a human behind a channel to act as a machine because they have to hit those numbers.

I've always arrived at KPIs being the biggest issue for ruining customer experiences. If you set wrong KPIs, it can directly or indirectly impact your customer's experience.

Daniele: It's super interesting, this notion that the way the KPI is structured, the way you measure things,

if we take that to an extreme, what will happen?

If we say, Oh, at the end, we have satisfaction scores that we send. Then what will happen if we put that to an extreme?

What will be the Black Mirror episode of what we're doing?

And then you say, ah, if we put five stars, the guy will at the end say, please give me a five star or I will be fired, and they're like, okay, sure, I'm going to give you a five star. And then again, the system is broken because then people feel this service is really bad for the employees.

So yeah, I'm not so happy to give my money to support people who are not nice with the other humans, and so again, the idea of making sure that satisfaction works well, goes back to Maybe just breaking the experience and so it's quite an interesting question of thinking, how would your KPI go in the wrong direction?

And how can you solve this? I don't have the answer, but I think the question is a very good one. And there's a question that that we should ask ourselves, when we set up this kind of stuff, like thinking, hey, If we want to keep this human and lovely, do we need a KPI? And if yes, how can it be misused and how can we prevent that?

Juneza: One misused to indirectly impact a customer's experience, because nobody is measuring that. Very rarely you get to hear the customer side of the entire conversation. So yeah, I think that could be one way to look at it.

Daniele: Lovely. I'm so happy of the conversation.

What I really enjoy today is that we use the book as a starting point to just think about making the lives of the people we serve a little bit easier.

And it's just a starting point and where we end is usually much more interesting.

So let me switch gears a little bit. What's something that you thought that's something that I don't really agree with.

And I will take a completely different way of seeing that.

The Bad Stuff

Juneza: So there was one topic where I had mixed emotions. It said that always end by proposing the free thing you can propose. So for that specific principle, I had a little bit of a mixed emotion, especially when the example that was provided here, where you spoke about your wife giving two different options when somebody asked for a monetary help, right?

So what I realized is that the use case is a bit limited, because for some of these ideas, it works for a non profit or a charitable institution, but when we think of a specific service, when a customer comes to us for a specific need and you divert that need into saying that, Hey, I won't be able to solve this for you, but I can give you some free goodies, or maybe I can give you a 10 percent discount in your next purchase.

I personally feel the customer would have a bad experience and they would be disappointed. So when they come for a specific need, how do we if we're not able to solve it for the customer, how do we essentially... Help them with it is a lot of the things, a lot of the times companies don't think about it.

It's not a part of their SOP. So for example, off boarding a specific customer later. That entire script is not something that companies actually have. I think an SOP for all of these things might work, but this particular example, I had a mixed emotion. I didn't know how to react.

In a real life format, I'm still struggling with how do you essentially solve for something where there is no clear SOP set. Let's say I got a damaged car, for example. I bought a car and I damaged it and I came back and I said, Hey, you know what? I have this insurance, but can you replace it? And they say, Hey, we don't have it in our company policy.

Instead, what we can do is we can give you a free... Mat for your legs. Would that really be something that I would be happy with? I'm not sure. So that's been something that has made me think on as to how do we respond to a question like this? If somebody comes and asks you for money, will they be happy if you say that, hey, you can come for a lunch service instead?

Daniele: Indeed. We will always come at a moment where we are not the solution, or because of structure of culture of other things, you can't provide the answer or the solution or the help.

And this will obviously happen. And the one thing that I found interesting in this story of my wife was As she's a pastor, and she has the logo of the NGO she's part of, when she's in the street, many people go and think, oh, she helps, so I'm gonna ask her money. And obviously, her budget for helping people is limited.

I found interesting this idea that it's not that I don't want to help, it's that I'm limited with what I can do and showing that is something that is quite interesting. Then obviously how you frame that in a commercial setting is a bit different.

In a commercial setting, maybe there are sentences that you could use or something like, if we take your car example, which is okay, you can't reimburse me that. And then you say, yes, I'm very sorry. Here we're limited with what we can do. Our policy is that we can't do that. What I can do, and I think it won't help you but let me just tell you what I can do.

What I can do is this and this, right? That's where I'm limited today. Is there, will that help in any way? And then it's okay, I'm recognizing that we are in a limited system, but at the same time, I'm trying to show you that. I'm trying to fix the system and find solutions within it.

Juneza: Would it help if, let's say, in your wife's situation, somebody came in for monetary help, right?

There are, let's say, there are 30 people who've come in for monetary help, but she has budget to help two people out of the 30. Would it help if... She gave them a process or system where they could request and they feel that they heard, and then she's tried to provide them with monetary help. But since there was a limitation and only two people could be chosen, the least that she could do is maybe give them access to more people who could support them with this monetary help by inviting them for lunch, right?

So is, does it? Would it help if we had a step prior to providing another set of two solutions, but a process or a system where the customer felt like they were heard, like their issue has been heard, has been tried, but then we could not respond to it because of the limitation, but yet we're trying to help you as much as we can.

So would that structure make a lot more sense? Would, because sometimes people don't feel heard. When you say that, okay, this is what I need, but they say, Hey, you know what? I can't give you this, but I can give you these things. Yeah. I, as a customer, I would be like, but that's not what I want.

You did not. So how do we make someone hurt? We feel like they've been.

Daniele: So what you're suggesting is saying, if someone comes, if you're in a situation where you can't First acknowledging that you understood the request. I'm saying this, from what I understood, this is your request, then showing the limitation.

So making the backstage kind of a bit visible, saying, Hey, this is why at the moment. I can't help you, so just giving a reason, and then this is where we are, where I am at the moment. Now, would you like me to suggest stuff that I can help you with, or that I give you an alternative? And then, you don't even come with...

These are two things that I could do, but You ask the person if she would be willing to hear what you can do for her? Right Which will be a bit longer, but which will be more like,

I heard you, this is what happens behind the scenes. These are stuff that I could do. Would you like me to present them to you? Yes or no?

Juneza: So basically

Helping the customer empathize with you as an employee, because all we tell that we have to empathize with the customer. Sometimes we should let them empathize with us without limitation.

In fact, I'll tell you where I learned this from.

I learned it from a customer support member where I had ordered a lipstick of a specific color. And for some reason it was just not getting delivered and I had called the customer support team and I was talking to this person and he told me can you wait because my system is very slow and it'll take me some time to see why your order has not been placed yet or why it hasn't been delivered.

Once he told me that he's struggling with his system and there is a network issue in his space, I was more willing to wait.

Versus if he had said that can I put you on hold and put me on hold for 15 minutes on a call, I would have got frustrated. Instead, he gave me a reason as to why he needs me to wait.

And once the system worked, he said, hey, you know what, what has happened is that right now, The color that you have chosen is out of production. And I was like, why didn't you guys inform me? He said, there is a disconnect between my backend system and the customer's application due to which this is not reflected, but I can tell you what's happening because I have access to this particular knowledge.

So right now we're out of production. Instead, should I order another lipstick for you? So when he gave me these information, I was much more empathetic towards him instead of putting me on hold or letting me know, Hey, you know what? I can't, we can't deliver you this lipstick instead. Can we get you a, another product?

I would have been very furious and frustrated. And I would have asked him if I wanted this particular product, I would have ordered it myself. So that's where I learned from him that Sometimes we should allow our customers to empathize with us. Because there are back end limitations, there are technological limitations, and everyone's aware of it.

So if we give them a glimpse of it, I'm sure a customer would empathize with us as well.

Daniele: Indeed, and especially...

It turns the relationship from something which is transactional: I want this from you. You want this from me. To: Hey, we are trying to solve the problem together. We are part of the same situation. And: Hey, your computer sucks from time to time. Mine too! And: My boss is crazy and yours too, and we live in the same world!

Juneza: Yeah, because we generally see, like you said, your wife had the logo and the emblem. So we see her as the brand and the company, and we forget to realize that she's also human and she has limitations in part.

She's also another person in that entire system, right? So allowing the customers to see that might be a very interesting way to write the principle. So if there is a emotional quotient that we could add on to the principle which helps a service designer to relook at a service from how a customer could empathize with an employee, that might be a interesting principle for, triggering some thought process for a service designer who's reading it.

Super interesting.

Daniele: I like this idea of saying first: I've heard you, this is what you asked me, and I understood your request.

Second, saying :This is why it's not possible that I help you. Helping the other empathize with the situation and revealing what's happening in the backstage.

And then asking: Do you want me to propose something that is not the solution, but at least is something?

Then if the person says, yes, tell me about the other stick that they could get, or no, just forget about it and let me cancel it and goodbye. Which is okay.

Super interesting.

Here I'm asking myself, how can we make sure that we are doing it in a genuine way, because there are moments where... It's just, hey, just help me, I don't want to understand, and don't try to make me feel that it's super hard to work, it just, it should work, and I can blame you as a customer, and it's okay, it's a, it's part of the deal, and when is it something where you say, hey, no, that's a moment where In fact it's, it is important that the person understands it and I think it will add value in the relationship.

I have an intuition, but before sharing my intuition, I'd love to hear how would you react to that.

Juneza: So how I would react to that is, in order to make something genuine, I think this goes back to our first conversation, it also depends on the value system of the company. I'm thinking from a more commercial space.

So it I personally feel it's the value system of a company that essentially translates into that customer experience, right? So if you're trying to be not genuine, that entire structure would be scripted. And the customer is not interacting you once, they're interacting with you multiple times. And customers are smart.

They can catch it when it's not genuine. So and they know when something is a genuine issue. So I think it's more from how do we build that value system in the company and ensure that the employees are aligned to that value system. So that they're delivering that whatever that experience is in a more genuine manner is where I feel that we should be pushing the companies towards.

Because if the value system of the company is let's hit sales targets, let's push sales, then that's what the employees worry about and that's what their concerns are. And that would also reflect in the way they handle any customer conversations or customer requests. Yeah, I think that's the area where I would try and work towards.

What was your intuition? I'm just curious

Daniele: yeah, super interesting. So we come back to this:

The value system is often what... fucks things up. And working on the value system then has benefits in very practical elements later.

My intuition would be based a bit on what I'm seeing happening in the train service here in Switzerland, where what I see, I don't know if it's the case, but that's my intuition based on the different interactions I have with the guys, checking your tickets, is the company seems to give a bit of a leeway and saying, Hey, this is, these are the rules, And these are the things you can do, but You're smart enough to know when you have to break the rule, and when you want to apply the rule very strictly. And these are the things that you can do, and you can go up to this part.

And which makes it that the interactions are very genuine. Now the guy who controls the ticket is with an old lady, super stressed. She has no ticket because she didn't know how to make the ticket machine work because digital scares her and she's already crying and stuff.

By law, he should fine her. And the guy just says, don't worry, madam. It's all okay. No worries. Here's how we will do it. I will make for you a special ticket for today. You don't have to pay anything. If you make me a promise, madam: next time you buy your ticket in And then you hear the madam say, yes, for sure, I promise. Okay, so we have, you've made a promise now, so this is serious. Okay, so here is your ticket. And it works very well. And on other cases, the guy is no, you didn't buy a ticket. I see the guy has a smartphone, he's playing on it on TikTok, he could have bought something online very simply, like no reason to be more helpful because that wasn't, and that wasn't a mistake.

It was someone who tries to not pay and no, no chance that day there was someone checking the tickets. And I think having this. This recognizing the expertise of the frontline worker who also knows and has the empathy, it's hard for the company because you try to make the best structure and the best processes and everything and you put the best people to do that.

But then you have to trust that people can a bit break the rules on the frontline. Maybe I think that's where I would go is having in the values, we have rules. But we know that there are moments where we need to

Juneza: break them. Giving that flexibility as a part of that structure itself. Yeah, that's very interesting.

And how much flexibility is good for a company? I'm not sure, how do you measure it? Like how, maybe there's a budget? I'm thinking from a very implementation angle. So maybe there is a budget that's allocated towards it, or... Where if things do go wrong, it's not a direct impact for the company as well.

So I'm not sure how would they define, okay, you have so much of leeway, or this is where you could take the decisions based on situations. Because like you said, there could things, there would be situations where things could go wrong as well. And how do companies manage that is, it's a very interesting thought process.

Yeah.

Daniele: There is an example, which can be quite interesting, which is from Tim Ferriss. And the author who previously had a business, maybe, that example of the hundred bucks. He had this rule where he made the calculation: if I give to my customer support stuff and I tell them: you can solve any problem you'd like up to 50 bucks and Measuring what it costs me to, if they bring that up the hierarchy and it comes to me, my time would cost so much.

Then you can do the calculation and say, up to this point, just solve it by yourself and it's okay. And if it needs more money, then, yes, it's valuable that we discuss with another teammate or with your manager or the boss even.

And maybe that's ways you can calculate that.

Juneza: The criticality of an issue can also be easily flagged and marked. I think that's a very interesting structure. Yes. Yeah. Awesome.

Daniele: We both know a lot about service design. It's a deep passion we have and we can't ever put everything we have in our brain in books and stuff. And so my question to you is you've read that chapter, do you have suggestions for people to

Juneza: go further?

Resources to go further

Juneza: I definitely do. So I have all the books with me here.

Book: The Power of Moments

Juneza: So there is one book called The Power of Moments. I'm sure you've read it. Yes. So this is awesome. This step reminds, like your chapter reminded me of this book quite a bit, where they're looking at different elements in a customer's journey to rise that peak.

Of the experience, as well as how do you balance when there is a bad experience or a low expectation, right? So this book is definitely something that I would recommend for this chapter, specifically if somebody is interested to see how more how do we essentially craft experiences with very high peaks.

Like how you've written about surprising a customer, what are the other ways to increase that peak of the experience during that entire journey?

Book: To Sell Is Human

Juneza: Another book that I would recommend because this chapter is a very specific to frontline workers,

hence, there is Daniel H. Pings to sell as human oh, it's a beautiful book. It talks about a lot of sales strategies, but from a customer experience angle. A lot of the times, any person who's at the support space or as a salesperson or as a frontline worker, they are either negotiating, convincing, so that communication bit.

is something that he talks about very heavily. So it's not only for sales teams, it's also for all frontline workers as to how to help a customer see value in the service that they're providing. It's something that I would definitely recommend. Apart from that, these are all non service designer books.

Book: Misbehaving

Juneza: One from research, which is Misbehaving. I'm sure you've read this book as well. It's Richard Thaler's, a lot of again on behavioral economics, which also highlights how do we measure surprise? How do we measure a person's reaction? How do you measure a person, a customer's response to something that we've designed?

Yeah, I would definitely recommend these three books.

Daniele: Awesome. Thank you so much. You're the first person who managed to get a sales book in my reading list, so well done for that.

I'm extremely thankful for all the knowledge that you shared with me today and the community.

Where can people find you? Do you have another thing that you would recommend if people want to get in touch with you?

More about Juneza

Juneza: The best channel to get in touch with me would be LinkedIn.

Apart from that, if anybody is interested to read the book and understand how service experiences are designed in India, they can always get the book from Amazon.

I'm also a speaker. I've been speaking for quite a few conferences. If somebody is interested to see the kind of work that we're doing currently in the agri tech space, they can find most of the topics on YouTube.

So they can just drop in a message in LinkedIn and I'm happy to share it with them.

Closing words

Daniele: Thank you so much for the conversation. It's been super lovely.

Juneza: Yes. I hope you have a great day and looking forward to more conversations with you.

Thanks so much. Bye bye. Bye. Bye. Awesome.